Gerard Holland: Global Talent, Entrepreneurship, and the Strength of Africa

In a global edition of Sound of Inbound, we join the immensely impressive Gerard Holland down under to discuss his work with TalentMatch and his vision of bridging the gap between untapped talent and meaningful career opportunities across the globe.

Since 2022, TalentMatch Africa has been taking off, and connecting young professionals in Africa with remote work opportunities in the USA, Australia, and beyond, leveraging the continent's immense potential for growth and innovation.

Check out this episode on YouTube and Spotify, and Apple Podcasts.

• Episode Transcript

  Aaron: Hello everybody. Today we get to go international, and I don't wanna do that thing that everybody does that says we're gonna go down under. But we are going down under to Australia, and we have a very special guest here today from Talent Match Africa. His name is Gerard, and he is doing some amazing things. And we are very, very, very lucky to have him here on the show. Another person that we got to connect with at INBOUND 2025. That is just the place to meet all sorts of amazing folks. Uh, he is doing quite a lot of things. What do you think, Mark? What do you think about Gerard?

  Mark: I'm excited to have a footy player on the podcast.

  Aaron: Oh my gosh, how can I not bring that up? Yeah. Do you remember watching some of those videos of—

  Mark: Yeah.

  Aaron: ...what Australian rules football is when we found out that he used to do that? That's crazy. He's... I mean, he's done so much really cool work for the workforce community. I mean, he's, he started his own business. He's been an incredibly successful entrepreneur.

  Mark: Yeah.

  Aaron: And he also did that.

  Mark: Yeah.

  Aaron: It's nuts. And he actually coordinated with the Mandela family, right?

  Mark: Oh, yeah.

  Aaron: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's got some really interesting stuff. He is actually a force to reckon with.

  Mark: Yeah.

  Aaron: So please enjoy our time with Gerard here on The Sound of INBOUND. I think you're gonna love it.

  Aaron: Hello everybody, and welcome to The Sound of INBOUND. From finance to social impact, today's guest is building a global bridge between untapped talent and real opportunity. He's the founder of InternMatch and Talent Match Africa, connecting emerging talent to meaningful careers and tackling the age-old question: How in the world do you get experience if no one is gonna give you a chance? His work spans from Australia to Ethiopia, Kenya, Rwanda, South Africa, Europe, US, and he also partners with the Mandela Legacy Foundation, where he continues to champion economic empowerment at scale. Please welcome to The Sound of INBOUND podcast, from all the way from Australia today... I love this. We're now global. We're now a global podcast because of this amazing man, Gerard Holland. Hello, Gerard. How are you?

  Gerard: Hey, Aaron. Thanks for having me. That was a very nice intro. Um, and yes, Australia is far away.

  Aaron: Yes, it is far— You were just here. You were just here in the States, correct?

  Gerard: Yes.

  Aaron: And you actually did kind of like a world tour. When you came to the United States, you were just telling me a few minutes ago, what was your favorite stop?

  Gerard: Chicago.

  Aaron: Chicago. Did you have a chance to enjoy the Chicago hot dogs while you were there?

  Gerard: I did get a Chicago hot dog, and I got the, I got this popcorn that I, I got told I had to have, too. I can't remember the name of it. It's famous popcorn apparently. Uh, and I was there for the World Series was on while I was in America, which I still don't understand why it's called the World Series when it's just got one team from Canada and the rest are in the USA.

  Aaron: You really did get a chance to see one of America's great cities. Um, I had, part of my childhood was in the Midwest, and I really did enjoy Chicago quite a bit. Got to see a lot of like...

  Gerard: It's like a mini Broadway, when you go into Chicago.

  Aaron: If you wanna see Broadway shows, there's a lot of great shows that tour through Chicago. And I got to see Les Miserables and Cats and all sorts of, and Rent and a few of the big, big shows when I was little. And now I think back then, I'm like, gosh, I had such a cool exposure to the arts through Chicago. It's a great place.

  Gerard: The moment I realized that I really loved the city was, I, I was walking somewhere, just walking through town and, and I was just looking up at all the buildings, and I couldn't stop staring up and, like, almost walking in circles. And I'm like, "Wow, this, this city is absolutely beautiful." Uh, the, you know, the architecture and the, the history and how they've... Uh, just the blend of all the different buildings and it, it... Seriously one of the most beautiful cities.

  Aaron: And you have been, as I said in the intro, you have been in a lot of places. You have traveled the world. I was gonna just say, because I wanted to let everybody know how you and I met, 'cause I think it's kind of like a kismet thing that we both got the chance to, to meet each other. Uh, so first off, you and I both share a partnership with HubSpot.

  Gerard: Yes.

  Aaron: And, they gave us a really great opportunity to, network with each other, at the INBOUND conference this year. And, it was a special opportunity to talk to the folks that were being more involved with the show in different ways. We're kind of champions as part of the community, and you got to run, I think, some founder-focused dinners. Is that correct?

  Gerard: Yeah. So we, we managed to convince HubSpot to support us in Australia, all the way in Melbourne, to run some dinners for people either using HubSpot or looking to use HubSpot. And so we did the first one not long after INBOUND last year, so in 2024, and then rolled it into another one. And then when we were in INBOUND this year, we got to meet with some people like yourself that had also started running some of these dinners. So there's a bit of a trend that's caught on. I'm happy to say that we, the first one ever was in Melbourne. So Ali at HubSpot, if you're listening, thank you for getting the first one in Melbourne. We were the pioneer, and it's taking off. So I think one day, though, when everyone running them needs to get together and have, like, the ultimate HubSpot dinner.

  Aaron: What I think was so fun about our community at the HubSpot level is that they will find these really strange interconnections and not really... 'Cause I don't know if you and I would've ever had a chance to, to work like this. So I think it's really great that we have an opportunity through the HubSpot community to connect the way we did and share some of our experiences together. And because of you and your inspiration, I did was a, I was able to run a founders focused dinner here too, and it was extremely successful, and I hope I get to do it again as well. Okay. So a couple things of also about your origin story, which is always kind of fun. In my background, I, I went to music school and film school and ended up, in course, in marketing, and I'm in the life sciences. So people are like, "How did you get from that to this?" And for you, you started off... Do we say it on the pitch, or do I say the field? You're, you're an Australian rules football player. Footy, I think you guys call it, right?

  Gerard: We call it footy. It's... And we actually, unlike in America where you throw it, we kick it. So football actually makes sense. Uh, although not to be confused with soccer. So in Australia, we call the, you know, that game soccer and, and we have a version called Australian rules football, which when people watch it, and a lot of Americans watch it and— And at first I'm like, "What the hell is this game? This is crazy." So yeah, I've played that for 20 years. Not at the, not at the professional level. Yeah.

  Aaron: It was your passion, yeah. That was amazing. And so your history, I think you started off in finance. Am I correct about that?

  Gerard: Yeah, that is correct.

  Aaron: So I mean, just take us for a second through the journey of how you went from working for an organization in finance and finding yourself in a place where you're like, "You know what? I need to work for myself and work with people, not for people." Give us a little bit of a story about how that happened.

  Gerard: Yeah, so and I think for if there's any young people listening, that you can't expect to know where your career is going to go because you actually have no idea. Uh, and in the world of AI now, you really have no idea because who knows what jobs are gonna exist in 10 years anyway. Uh, but yeah, I started off when I finished school, I got into Melbourne University, and I didn't know what I wanted to do as... What 17-year-old knows what to do, what they want to do? So I, I got into Melbourne University into commerce, and then I ended up majoring in accounting because, you know, the other majors weren't that interesting to me. And then I got a job at an accounting firm, so then I became an accountant, so none of it was planned. And yeah, and I'm spending 10 years at, you know, at a large, accounting, advisory, and consulting firm, called Pitcher Partners in Australia, part of the Baker Tilly network, and I covered audit and tax and management accounting, and I was a national operations manager for a while, and, yeah, spread my, spread myself around the firm a fair bit and, and started, helped start the outsourced CFO division, of the firm and, and that's grown into a pretty big part of the, the business now. But it was through that that I got to, experience more deeply about, different industries, as you do. So I became an outsourced CFO for a, a client in, in international education, so, a college with 5,000 international students. And, you know, I got to learn about the experience for international students in Australia, and, and that was pretty insightful. And at the same time, I, I did a master's in entrepreneurship and innovation. So, you know, you take an accountant that's a very analytical, risk-averse type function and, and then you put them into an entrepreneurship master's program, and you've got this yin and yang that's, that's happening. But by doing that, that master's is, is what ended up leading me to start my own business because it gave me the confidence to, to go and do that. And, you know, I remember, I remember sitting in one of those classes. We had a, a guy called Bob Beaumont came to, to talk to us as a guest speaker. And I think people that anyone's done a master's in that type of education, everyone says the same thing. It's the, the people you do it with, the cohort, and the, usually the guest speakers that is the most powerful part of, of doing any form of that type of education. And I remember this guy, Bob Beaumont, he was saying, "When you're 85 and you're on your deathbed, you know, what do you wanna be remembered for? What do, what do you wanna leave on, you know, leave behind?" And, and, you know, you... There's a lot of research out there. No one ever says it's money. Like, it's, it's always, you know, about the impact they've had on people and what they've done with their life and, and that was a, a trigger point for me that I wanted to go and do something, with my life that has an impact on, on other people and ideally at scale. So that was a trigger point and, and then as I was learning about the experience for international students at the same time in my job as a, as a CFO for, for this client, I, I realized that it was international students that I wanted to try and, and create better opportunities for, and the universities were doing a terrible job of it and, you know, there's a lot of money gets thrown at recruiting international students. It still happens today. And a complete disproportionate amount spent on what happens at the end of their degree. And in my view, the end of their degree is what job do they get? And the, the job of a university is not done until someone has a job in the field that they had gone and studied. Now, universities don't see the world that way. They, their job is done once you, you get a certificate. You know? The, they've sort of ticked that box. And so, I was inspired to go and start a business to help international students with career-related employment. And, and my... The, the simple thing that I looked at was the paradox of how do I get experience if no one will give me experience? Because when you're hired, you're gonna favor someone that has experience than doesn't have experience, even though it's at that graduate level. But how do you get in the system? You, you've gotta fight your way in somehow, and once you're in, you, it's hard to get out. And so that paradox was, was the problem I needed to solve, and I realized that doing an internship placement was the way to get into that experience bucket. And so we started a business that was doing internship placements, and then the universities became our clients. So funnily enough, it ended up being the unis that ended up being the ones that paid our bills because we were solving this problem of, you know, employment after a degree. And as graduate outcomes became more pressure from government, then we were able to, to ride that wave. And, and I've mentioned, you know, I quit my job and, and, and went and started that, went all in on it. And look, a little funny fact I suppose that I look back on the history is that we didn't earn one dollar of revenue for the first year. So you quit your job. Life's great. You go, "I'm gonna start a business. I'm gonna be an entrepreneur, and we're gonna get, we're gonna build tech, and we're gonna do all this stuff." And 10 months in and you, you haven't got a sale yet. And, you know, that's part of the journey. That, that's being an entrepreneur. You gotta invest in yourself.

  Aaron: Yeah. You are, you are, um... I wish there were more folks like you, at least were, I wish there were more folks like you when I was graduating school, that would help folks like us that need to... That catch 22. You basically said it. How are you supposed to get opportunities when you need experience, and then you need experience to get the opportunity? And in my career, trying to work for other agencies, I was turned down constantly in my early part of my career 'cause they're like, "You need more experience." I'm like, "But I need the, I need the job." So having you guys out there is, it's phenomenal, and you seeing and recognizing talent and giving folks a platform to look for things that they may not even considered before. Uh, so the part that made me so excited for you, and I wasn't even aware of it when we first met, when we were in, in, at INBOUND together, was that you had a relationship with the Mandela Legacy Foundation, right? That was because you met them during, a networking event. Was that right? And then you said this is inspiring you to think outside of Australia.

  Gerard: Yeah, so I met, I met Zondwa Mandela, who's — he's the youngest grandson, grandchild of, Nelson and, and Winnie. So Nelson had two wives and, and Winnie was the second wife, and, and Zondwa's, the youngest on, on that side. And, and it was a... I mean, it was probably, it was a life-changing meeting because, he, Zondwa pretty bluntly asked me, "Why are you, why are you helping privileged people?" And I sort of nearly fell off my chair as he asked me 'cause, 'cause here I was thinking that I've had a big focus on helping international students, because international students don't have social capital in the countries they move to, and international students aren't all wealthy. Like 90% of them are actually, are being supported by families back home that, you know, saved up all their life savings to, to send them to another part of the world to get educated, to have a better life. And, and that's, that is a beautiful thing about education. It, you know, can take families out of poverty if, if you can educate yourself, and we know what happens, with that. So, and people sacrifice a lot to make that happen. So I thought I was doing a good thing for the world by helping people that aren't necessarily that privileged to have the ability to have a better life. Um, but Zondwa's perspective was, "We need your business model in Africa." Like, yeah, you're helping graduates and young people in Australia and the UK and, and Canada. We're in those three, three markets. But what about Africa? And I, my response to him is like, "Mate, I've never been there." Like I, on my list of countries I'm going to next, like not one of them is on the African continent. Uh, that question, has ended up taking me down a completely different, journey that I, I'm, I'm very grateful for. But it's funny, those things in life and being an entrepreneur that you don't... So I say at the start, you don't know where you're gonna go, but that question's changed the trajectory of my entire life, not just my business.

  Aaron: You got excited with that moment. That was inspiring to you. But then you had to fight for it. You told me about that as well. So you decided against all odds, you're just gonna head out, and he, was he part of what helped you understand more of what's happening on the African continent and actually meeting certain communities and where the need was most necessary?

  Gerard: Yeah. So, so six weeks after that conversation, the pandemic really took hold of the world. So, I mean, I think everyone probably remembers where they were at a critical point of the pandemic. And in Melbourne, Australia, the date that our premier said, "Everyone..." It was a, I think it was a Friday about lunchtime, the announcement came out, "Everyone go home. We're in lockdown." I think anyone that lived in a city that went into lockdown probably remembers the first time that they were sent home and said, "You go home. Do not move. Stay." And, and so that was a pretty pivotal moment. And, you know, I think, I think that afternoon, I think we, we let eight people go from the business. Like we, you know, we, we realized that this was not gonna be a, a two-week thing. This was gonna get rough, and it was a pretty scary time for the business, actually. I, I, you know, to be honest, I thought we'd probably lose the business around that time and, and I know a lot of other business owners were in the, in the same category. And lucky the Australian government eventually came out with some pretty good, JobKeeper and JobSeeker type things that kept businesses afloat, and we're one of those too. If the Australian government didn't support businesses, I don't think we'd still be here today. Um, but, you know, but that period of time around that, that, you know, the onset of the pandemic was a really scary time to be a business owner. Anyway, so that, that happened not long after that meeting, and then the world changed as the pandemic took hold of the world, and two big shifts started happening. And the first one was the acceptance of remote work. And I think we forget that in 2019 and before, you used to go to the office five days a week. Now my career grew up, there was not even, it was not even comprehensible that you would just say on a Wednesday, "Hey, I'm gonna work from home tomorrow." And, you know, for a 21-year-old today, they'd, they'd be like, "What? You went five days a week? You guys insane?" But that was the norm. And then all of a sudden boardrooms, exec teams, all the C-suites realized, wow, people can actually be productive at home because they had to be. So I still remember in May 2020, Jack Dorsey, who was the CEO at Twitter at the time, so pre Elon Musk, pre name change, and you know, Jack said that anyone at, in head office doesn't have to ever come back to the head office. So people started leaving San Francisco to move to Austin and New Orleans and Miami. And I, I remember the story of someone working at Meta that, and it was called Facebook then, was, lived on a cruise ship for nine months. He's like, "Why does it matter where I am?" So like that's a huge shift in the way that, global resourcing works. And so I thought, wow, if you can now work for Twitter in Silicon Valley, but you're located in, in Austin or Italy on a cruise ship, why can't you be in Johannesburg, Kigali or Nairobi? And the answer is, well, you can be now. So that was a huge shift that we saw happening. And then the digital skill shortage started accelerating as well because businesses were forced to go online. Like I, I tell the story of The Salvation Army that, you know, they used to have all bricks and mortar, they didn't have an online store. You know, during the pandemic, they had an online store, and that was the highest grossing store within 12 months. It got a digital team of 80 people by, by mid 2021. So businesses were shifting, so you need more people with tech and digital skills, and those jobs can be done remotely. We thought, okay, all right, the world is changing. What does this mean and what does it mean for Africa? And those conversations with Zondwa was still happening. We're doing a lot of, you know, Zoom calls, you know, stuck in our bedrooms in during COVID about what it would look like for Africa. And we started running some pilots in South Africa and, and exploring how models would work. Made lots of mistakes, which is the point of running pilots, you know, that, you know, things don't work and, you know, lots of disasters. But yeah, we're working out how we could blend our model. Uh, and then to your point, around the question was that as soon as the borders were opened up by our prime minister, within a week I, I was on a plane straight into Ethiopia and went to Rwanda second, Kenya third, and down to South Africa. And, you know, it was a, a three-week trip and we'd loaded up meetings with, ministers and vice chancellors and heads of NGOs. Uh, but the, the most impactful thing was just meeting the young people, and I say young people, you know, 25-year-olds, and just the level of English capability, the level of education, the tech savviness, the just the—

  Aaron: Dedication, motivation—

  Gerard: —I mean, just people that wanna work and want an opportunity and that trip just changed my life. I, I, you know, I, I went back from that and said, "All right. We're launching Talent Match Africa, and here's the markets we're going into," and—

  Aaron: Well, wait, wait, wait. Critical moment here. Your board was like, "No." Right? Didn't they say it to you at one point? They're like, "No, this isn't happening," and you're like, "Don't care."

  Gerard: It wasn't all, "Yes, let's... We should go and do this." There was a bit of, "We're going to Africa?" Like... And, and to be fair, like, my perception of Africa before going on that trip was of World Vision ads. When you haven't been to Africa before, and I, I try to remember this when I'm talking to new clients, is that you can't take away this image that sits in the back of your head of, you know, dirt roads and mud huts and kids that are malnutritioned and, and I do blame World Vision because their business model is based on getting donations. And if you show Cape Town and the harbor and... You know, who's gonna donate to World Vision when you've got these beautiful buildings and the scenery? And so, you know, there's these perceptions that are built in people's heads. So, you know, it's one of those places, and people say, "Well, you, that sounds like so high risk," and, "Why Africa?" And, "There's corruption," and there's all this sort... Like, all the reasons no.

  Aaron: Pause you for a second. I don't want... I hope this isn't too much of a distraction, but you're giving me an opportunity to ask you something I think is pretty important. If I... And this is a hard question, okay? So I'm catching you off guard. If you had to give Africa and the economic opportunity perception before you ever went out there, so think about what was Africa to you in a word before you went on your trip. What do you think it was, and then what do you think it was when you left?

  Gerard: So before would be impossible, if I think from a business context, and then after would be potential.

  Aaron: Oh, those are beautiful. It's why I love this guy. Oh, those are great. That's really great, and I think that's what people have to think about. As you said, you, you World Vision might have been doing a good job marketing, trying to change people's perceptions about where opportunity, where, where need was needed, you know? That kinda thing. Um, but as you just pointed out, it's like, no, this place is, is actually ripe with opportunity for folks, and potential, like you're saying. So I think that's beautiful.

  Gerard: Yeah, it, it dawned on me on that trip that the next 30 years is going, going to be about Africa. Like, the, the growth potential and the prosperity and, like, this is the place to be. Like, imagine going into India 40 years ago and the powerhouse that India has become. Like, that is now gonna be Africa. So I'm like, we're just getting in early. Like, man, there, there's nothing crazy about it. Like, this is what's happening. I've seen it. It's going to happen, so we're just gonna be on the ride.

  Aaron: So you were saying a couple minutes ago, though, and I cut you off, but you followed this passion. You saw this thing, and you just thought, "There's no other way. I... This is gonna be our business model now. We're, we're heading here, and we're gonna help these people," and, you made it work. You made it work! Isn't that fantastic?

  Gerard: Yeah, and it hasn't been easy, but what is? Like, nothing in business is easy and, and being in... I think Elon Musk talks about, starting a business, it's like chewing glass and staring into the abyss, right? So, and there's been, definitely been moments like that. Uh, and yeah, it, it took a, a few years of, of, you know, trialing things and getting things set up and getting operationalized and, you know, navigating the way things work and getting companies set up, and there's just, there's so much to work through that if you knew everything in front of you at the start, you wouldn't do it. But once you, once you're in it and you're halfway through, then, you know, you, you keep pushing ahead. Um, but yeah, but now we've got people working out of Addis Ababa, Ethiopia; Nairobi in Kenya; and then Johannesburg, Durban, and, and Cape Town. And, you know, that's fully operationalized business, and we've got clients across the USA, Australia, UK, Canada, France, and China. And, you know, we're slowly, I say, sort of compete against India and the Philippines every day, and we've got clients that, you know, have got offshore resources in those markets that are now moving across to, to Kenya and South Africa and are seeing the, the benefit of, of how good the talent is and the critical thinking and the problem-solving that goes with the talent in Africa. That's part of their culture. Um, you know, the, the English, strong English capability, the level of education, and the vibrant personalities. I think that's a really big differentiator for us and, you know, some, if someone says, "Okay, well, why should we go to South Africa or Kenya or Ethiopia instead of going to the Philippines?" And a big part of it is that, Africans are these very outgoing, beautiful personalities, and it comes across when you're working with people like that. And, you know, a, a, a big part that comes out of it is that we love the people that we work with, and they become part of our family and our friends. And, you know, I've got a client in, in Melbourne that talked about some of the people working with them out of Johannesburg and, and this is an Australian term, so I don't know if this will make sense to, to other people, but, "Michael and Riley, they take the piss out of us every day." And I'm like, "Oh my God," like, "I'm so sorry." They're like, "No, no, you don't understand, Gerry. Like, we love it." Like, so the banter that they have with each other, it's like, it's like having another Aussie in the team.

  Aaron: Which is great, which is great. I, I do think that what you guys are doing right now is just wildly inspiring, and don't... You make it accessible on both ends, and I think that's the magic that you guys offer, and I, I believe a lot in your business model and what you're trying to do, and I hope we can also eventually work with you too, 'cause I think it's a fantastic thing what you guys are doing for the world and especially those folks in those communities in Africa. I think that's just fantastic. 'Cause you are still working, of course, in the Europe, in the United States, and Canada, and other places too, of course. Uh, but it's great, and I, and I can imagine that you have a lot of vision of where this can go. So we're gonna take a quick break and when we come back, we're gonna talk more about grassroots marketing. We're gonna get into why companies should be more socially minded, which I think we all should do. I think we should also talk more about HubSpot and how we use HubSpot — both of us, 'cause I think that's an important aspect of our partnerships and how we all met. And maybe where things are gonna go next for Talent Match and, and for everything you're doing, of course, with your business right now, just like looking ahead. So everybody stay tuned, and we'll be right back. Thank you.

  Aaron: Hello, everybody. We are back with Gerard coming to us from all the way from Melbourne, Australia. So I thought we would do a little thing I call Out of the Box. Um, if we had the time, I would send him a gift, and in that gift would be a box, and when he opened it, there'd be cards in there, and he'd have to read them out loud and figure out what the heck I was talking about. 'Cause we had done our research. Because he's important, we did our research on him, and we thought we would ask him a couple of questions about Melbourne and where he's from. So here we go. If we came to Melbourne, would it be a good idea to get a good old cup of magic with a side of hot jams?

  Gerard: I think when you're saying magic, you're referring to a type of coffee. Yes, you should get them.

  Aaron: Yes, that's right. It is. It's a type of coffee. Good, I got that right. And how about hot jams?

  Gerard: Hot jams, I have no idea what you're talking about, but it could be a hot jam donut. I'm tipping it's a hot jam donut.

  Aaron: Yeah, I told you. That's exactly right. That's exactly what it is. Nice. Yeah, a magic coffee and a hot jam donut, you would be, you'd be having a great morning. See? There you go. Okay, next up. Next question. What's up with Barry the Bear?

  Gerard: Barry the Bear. I have no idea.

  Aaron: You don't know Barry the Bear?

  Gerard: No.

  Aaron: University of Melbourne, it's the mascot.

  Gerard: Ah, yeah.

  Aaron: Do you remember him at all?

  Gerard: I joined pretty long ago now.

  Aaron: It's too long. Okay, well, here's some quick background on Barry the Bear. He's the unofficial mascot 'cause we heard that each of the colleges in the university also have their own mascot too.

  Gerard: Oh.

  Aaron: But if you go to the store right now, yes, you can get, you can get your own plushie of Barry the Bear. All right, there you go. Uh, the next one here is, in your career, have you ever yelled the phrase, "We got the chocolates"?

  Gerard: Yes, I would've probably definitely said that.

  Aaron: Okay, do you know what, what's that, what would that be referring to?

  Gerard: So it's like success, like you've achieved something.

  Aaron: Yeah, what is that? Yeah, so it's, it means that we win. We're, we're successful.

  Gerard: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

  Aaron: Okay. What's... How, what's the, what's the relationship between getting the chocolate and— I mean, I, I agree. But is there any origin to that phrase?

  Gerard: A lot of, a lot of these sayings, you say it like, and you, you're used to saying it, and then you're like, "I don't know what it means." So you go to ChatGPT and you ask it. And then it'll be some weird reason as to why that saying is the way it is.

  Aaron: How is, I hope I'm pronouncing this correctly, how is the pilau rice when visiting Ethiopia?

  Gerard: We, I went out for dinner to a traditional Ethiopian restaurant, in, when we were in Addis, and I didn't know what to expect. And we're at this traditional restaurant, you eat with your hands, and part of their tradition is you actually put food in someone else's mouth. And so you'd have this whole huge plate of stuff, I don't know what half of it was, and, yes, then all of a sudden people shoving food down your throat. So yeah, that's, that was a good experience.

  Aaron: It's gotta, it's gotta be very personal when people do that, right? I mean, you're really, you're, you're trusting somebody else, and you're connecting with them. So the first time I went to France... I don't think I've ever told this story. First — you're getting a new story. First time I went to France, I was meeting a whole bunch of folks that are in the filmmaking industry, and there was a bunch of videographers, producers, directors that I was getting to meet. And so, I, I was, I had gotten off the plane, I was very tired. I went over to the hotel, and it was very early morning, but they were all there to meet me to bring me to breakfast. And one of the guys walks up to me, and he has a big beard. And I forgot, in France, you do this little kiss kiss thing on the cheek, right? So this guy comes up to me, he's kind of a big guy with this beard, and he gets right in my face. And he's like, "Mwah, mwah." I'm like, "What is happening?" Like, you'd think it'd be this like gentle little... Nope. He was like, "I got you, American." Um, it was, it was a culture shock. That was fun. I had a couple things I thought we could talk about looking ahead. You know, 2025, if I had to like summarize it in, in a, in a word or two, hasn't been super sparkly. Uh, there's been a lot of negativity in all sorts of ways. But you had this new perspective, or not new, it's actually been going on for years, but you have this perspective of the world because you get to speak to people from all over the planet. Um, what's your current perception about how things are going? Are people more optimistic or less optimistic about where the world's going next, or is that kind of global community still out there thriving?

  Gerard: You know, interesting, interesting question. I think, I think more so than ever, people are more uncertain than ever. And the geopolitical environment, artificial intelligence, what that's gonna mean, so people are worried about what are the, what's the future of jobs. Spent time in America recently, and most Americans are not that bullish on what's going on and where things are headed and, the uncertainty that goes with that. Um, you know, America seems, seems divided, to be honest, like from a, at least from an Australian sort of coming in. And we, we don't have the, we don't have it in Australia where just because you voted one way or another, you sort of have this... It's almost like a sporting team environment. You know, I went to a college football game, and, you know, USC playing Iowa, and you got that camaraderie of, you know, we, we hate each other, but... And it's almost like America's become a little bit like that based on which side of the, the fence you sit on. So, but then when I spend time in Africa, it's like there's so much prosperity, and, you know, we're heading on a journey, and we're, there's gonna be growth, and, you know, we're looking up, and there's lots of excitement and activity. I know, I know many Africans living in Australia that are moving back to, to Africa. And, and I asked, you know, I've asked a few like, "Why?" And they say, like, "Have you seen the opportunity there is in Africa right now? Like, I wanna be part of this. I wanna get onto it. I wanna be there early. Like I, we wanna be building something." Like, there's so much opportunity. So, and maybe, and I haven't really thought about it in that way till you've just asked this question, but, you know, I'd almost say in a developed world that there's a lot of pessimism and uncertainty and — You know, people aren't probably that excited, but you go to some of the, the developing world, like parts of Africa, and it's full of excitement. Isn't that crazy?

  Aaron: That's gotta be really crazy. Yeah, I feel like, gonna be quoted on this, that we live in the divided States of America, not the United States of America, and I've felt that way for a while now. And I think people need to be still optimistic about the world around us, not be so egotistical about just so self-centered. You know? Like we're so US-centered. And I feel like in the past we've been very globally minded, and we've been forced in different ways through policies and other things that have forced us to think very internally, and that doesn't really make us into a good model for being a melting pot of cultures here. Uh, so I hope it returns. I really do. I'm gonna try to keep that positivity going that that will happen. In the market that we're in, you only get innovation and inspiration by looking outside. You, you can't just be working in a vacuum. It just doesn't, it doesn't work. So we have a lot of organizations that we operate with that have kept that global mindset, and I think that's the only way they're gonna survive and succeed. You gotta keep that going. No matter how the policies are, just fight up against it. And because, again, I, I don't think any of us are gonna have any progress unless we work together. Uh, so I'm, I'm a one world person for sure. The other thing I wanted to ask you was about the value of grassroots marketing. There's so many different ways to market these days, of course, but you still have this mindset that you gotta get out there. Um, I think that's very refreshing because a lot of folks have put a lot of stake into AI or into automation, or just basically leveraging systems and depending on systems to help bring in the opportunities. But I am so with you on the grassroots marketing side of things, where you gotta get out of your office and go meet the people. You gotta learn who they are. You gotta get to know them personally. You're gonna be working with them in different ways, and so why would you kinda depend on a lot of automation to kind of figure out what the lead funnel is? I think there's a portion of it that makes sense to bring in, like recognizing opportunities or pointing you in certain directions, but grassroots marketing has been kind of, I feel like, part of your DNA. What do you think about that?

  Gerard: Yeah. I think human connection's now becoming even more important. Um, and look, I think one of my superpowers is being able to build relationships with people, you know, relatively quickly. And I think with AI now, people are defaulting to almost laziness and thinking that you can go and work these AI tools. It's all of a sudden gonna... Like the amount of emails I get, and you probably get the same thing, right? You know, we're gonna get you so many, meetings booked, and we're gonna use AI, I'm gonna automate the hell out of it, and none of it works. So people don't believe emails being, you know, what you're receiving in an email now has actually been done by a human. And now LinkedIn inboxes are the same thing. And now we're on this new paradigm of videos, right? So you can get a video now. I don't know if it's Aaron sending me this video, or that's Aaron's AI avatar doing a video. So authenticity and being genuine now is, like, super important, and it's coming to a point where the only way you really know that you're talking to someone authentically is if you're seeing them in person. Like, I can literally touch you and know that it's actually you, because the AI is getting so good at the automation piece. And I think what it's doing is that people are now wanting to, to buy or do business with people that they actually have a human connection with. And that, the only way to build that now is to get out from behind your computer and to get out to the real world and actually spend time building relationships. And I think a lot of business in the future is gonna be done, is gonna go back to that. Which I think is awesome, by the way. So, you know, go back 50 years to, to how business was done and, you know, even before the pandemic, right? People used to spend a lot of time on planes because if you had a meeting with someone, if I had a meeting with someone in Sydney, you'd be on a plane and you'd go and meet them in person in Sydney. And then after the pandemic, you'd just do a Zoom call. Um, so, you know, there's not as much of that human connection, and I think for people trying to build businesses, if you wanna win in the game of building clients and building, new businesses, be the person that's had a human connection with the person that you're trying to, to sell to. Because I think probably 9 times out of 10, you're probably gonna end up winning because you've actually got that connectivity there. So I think going to, being at conferences and finding ways to have coffees with people, going have a beer with someone, like the more you can go and invest time in doing that, is just gonna be so hugely important because everything else has become inauthentic.

  Aaron: Number one, I absolutely agree. Absolutely agree with you. I feel like, we've had a lot of conversations with people about what does authenticity really look like. When I think about the software, which I wanna talk about HubSpot with you now for a minute, I feel like AI or any of these automation platforms do give an opportunity for us to cull through an enormous amount of information, look for signals, and point us in some interesting directions that we can take the recommendation or not. Um, and that does help me a lot. So I think that for you, does that do that for you as well? I mean, you have a lot of inquiry coming inbound, so I'm curious about what in your mind is the benefit of the software before you do get to that point of like, okay, it's, it's important enough for me to go meet these people.

  Gerard: Yeah. Yeah. We, I had the exact conversation with my team yesterday about how do we combine automation, whether it's AI. We use, we use HubSpot, yeah, absolutely embedded in our business. And so how do you combine, how do you now blend the two of the human interaction with using, you know, AI tools or automation or your CRM or whatever it might be? And part of it is too is, you know, you've met with someone, then how do you follow up with them? And how do you do that in a way that doesn't come across like it's an AI-generated follow-up? I think it's, I think that's a, a real risk that you've started that human connection, and then the next interaction you have with that person is like an automated AI thing. And then it's like you've almost undone the relationship side of things. So how do we bring those two things together that we're able to almost use the AI or the automation to get to the next point of that human connection piece? And it, it might be that — I was talking about how there's, there's stuff in an interaction, so say with you, Aaron, like I talked about we were both wearing those orange hats, right? So there's no AI tool on the planet that is gonna pick up that you and I connected because we had these orange hats on, and we talked about a HubSpot dinner, and we took a photo and we'll laugh about it, and... But no AI tool on the planet's gonna know how to do that, right? But that's the little human connection piece that's really, really important. And that's the things that I always try and focus on when, you know, I'm dealing with potential clients or existing clients, or like how do you remind them of the — it's not an intimate moment, but you could call it that. Those little things, and it makes you smile, and you laugh, and you remember, and it, it brings you closer together. And I was saying to my team that if you're emailing someone because you wanna follow up, and you're reminding them of that type of interaction, psychologically they are not going to ghost you. They are, they are just gonna reply to you because you've just reminded them of an emotion that they've had in the presence of you, right? And it's really easy to ignore people that you've never had a connection with. Like, you don't feel anything if, if someone reaches out to me and I ignore their email, I'll move on to the next thing. I don't feel anything. But if you emailed me and talked about that, like, I'm gonna wake up in the middle of the night saying, "Oh, I feel really bad. I never replied to Aaron." Right? And that's the part, I think that's the magic part of what we now need to achieve in business, is how can we use AI and these tools and our CRMs and, you know, HubSpot to help us to get to that next human connection piece. And I don't have all the answers for it, but like to me that's the magic of the way forward, is that there's not automation in the actual communication or connection part. It's everything else to get us to that part so that if I think in an, an ideal world and, and I'll stop now after I say this, but you almost have like if I could get into my CRM, into HubSpot tomorrow, and there's like 10 things saying, "Here's the 10 people you wanna reach out to for these reasons," and then I could sit there and think, "Yeah, that, I remember having that experience with Aaron or with whoever," I could then just go on, you know, edit and draft something up. It might prompt me to give them a call or, you know, it might just edit an email about, "Hey, remember those orange hats? Have you still got yours?" And then I can go bang, bang, bang, bang, bang and, and get it out, but it's personalized. But the CRM system or the AI has helped me do that in a way that is super, super efficient. I, I wanna get to that point. I'm learning about some tools that are gonna maybe help us get there.

  Aaron: I will say on the opposite end of the spectrum, I didn't even attend a show recently, but I had registered to make sure we could support some of our clients. And then after the show was over I got people emailing me going, "It was great to meet you at" name of conference. And I'm thinking, "Oh God, everything's falling apart now. This is just absolutely ridiculous." One thing I am learning, though, is there are tools that are coming out, and I'm hoping HubSpot would be one of them, Google, other ones too, where if you have an opportunity to, to combine the meeting notes, and all those interactions with your teams, internal discussions in chat, and your, all the other inferences that you get from email, if that was all in one place, you could get a lot of hyper-personalization metadata out of all of that information. So I can almost then say to this, a, you know, agentic kind of platform here, "What should be my next step? We've had all these conversations. We've had these meetings with them. We've met them at these shows. Here's my meeting notes from that. My team has been talking about this. Here's some industry trends. Here's the latest work we've done." I mean, it has all this context, and that's an enormous amount of input. So that's where I think AI could help us cull that down and maybe identify a few things like, "Hey, Aaron, you mentioned this 13 times in the last two weeks. I think maybe this is one of the items you wanna take, take that forward." Uh, one last question. I just was... You, you are always giving advice, I'm sure, it's constant, to folks that are looking for new opportunities. So what kind of advice would you give people right now if they were looking for a new job? Obviously, they should reach out to you guys. Especially if they're in Africa. Um, mostly that is where you work. I should clarify that. So when you are looking for people to be placed in certain organizations, the talent themselves are coming from Africa. Is that correct?

  Gerard: Yeah, and, and they stay in Africa. So they work from our offices, on the continent in, in the cities that we're in, and they work remotely for organizations in, you know, the USA, Australia and, and other places.

  Aaron: Well, maybe this is more of a universal answer that I'm looking for. What kind of advice do you give folks that are trying to get themselves ready for that next opportunity, that next job opportunity that they need to think about applying for?

  Gerard: I think anyone now, no matter what job they're going into, and I know it gets over-talked, but AI, I, you know, it is the greatest technology that's ever been invented. It's much bigger than the internet. Um, it's much bigger than the car replacing a horse. And so I wouldn't worry too much about the particular discipline they wanna go down, whatever it is, but make, just upskill as much as you can in AI and how you can make yourself three times more productive. And I think interviews in the future, you know, organizations are gonna ask, "Okay, what are you doing in the AI space? What are you doing to make yourself a, a better employee, more productive, more efficient? Like, what are you seeing?" Like, you've just gotta go down the rabbit holes of, of how you can utilize AI, understand it, work out how you can automate, and that's just every job is going to involve that, and I think that's what employers are going to look for.

  Aaron: That's great advice. I do agree in the same way. And there's a lot of different AI tools that are free. You know, there's a lot of things that you could do to kind of explore. Um, only this year have I learned there were so many outside of just platforms like OpenAI. There's Perplexity, and there's Claude, and there's, of course, Gemini. Um, and they all have their own free versions that you can just kind of play with, and they all have, seem to have a personality too. Uh, so it's good to kind of understand what they can all do for you. Uh, last thing, though, I would say in regards to AI is use it as a, supplemental tool. Don't, don't lean on it so heavily that you have to, like, depend on it. That's the problem that I think a lot of folks are kind of getting into, and then we become a sea of sameness. You know, a lot of the folks that work with that tool to create content or get advice, they're gonna get kind of the middle-of-the-road —

  Gerard: Yeah.

  Aaron: — advice. It's not gonna give them that human pivot that I like, that I like to say that's what we're here for. It's why the humans still have relevance, you know?

  Gerard: Yeah. Yeah. Now, use AI to be your superpower. Like, just how do you become two times better because you've got this amazing analyst that sits next to you all day, every day that you can work with to help you do your job. Uh, and it's, you know, to enable and push yourself to be, to be better.

  Aaron: I love that. Let's end with that sentiment. So Gerard, thank you so much for today. The work that you are doing at Talent Match is inspirational. I love how you have gotten a chance to connect cultures from one side of the world to the other, so I just absolutely love that. Um, and I hope we'll stay connected in all the good ways. So for everybody else that would like to follow along with what Gerard's up to, I hope you've checked him out on LinkedIn at Gerard Holland. You can find him there. We're gonna put his URL down below. And also at talentmatchafrica.io, if I got that correct. Uh, and you can see all about their business there. Gerard, this has been fantastic. Thank you for calling in and spending the time with us here on The Sound of Inbound. We greatly appreciate it.

  Gerard: Thanks, Aaron. It's been a lot of fun. Appreciate it.