Pieter Verhallen: Business School, Entrepreneurial Science, and Collectible Games.
On this very special Sound of Inbound offsite, we find ourselves at NC State University here in Raleigh! We're sitting down on campus with Teaching Professor of Marketing Pieter Verhallen to talk about what today's marketing students are studying, and his many entrepreneurial ventures.
Pieter has spent his career in many places around the world, including Czechia, France, and his home country of the Netherlands. He holds a Ph.D. in Marketing and a Master's Degree in Entrepreneurship. He takes us on our most intellectual Sound of Inbound journey yet to get into the minds of modern marketers.
Check out this episode on YouTube and Spotify, and Apple Podcasts.
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Aaron: Hey, Mark. How's it going?
Mark: Hey. What's up, handsome?
Aaron: Oh, thanks. Thanks, handsome. You have much better hair.
Mark: Aaron's all dressed up today, you guys.
Aaron: I am all dressed up. It's a very special occasion.
Mark: Uh-huh.
Aaron: But we're here at your alma mater.
Mark: Yes, NC State. This is the first time I've been back at my College of Management since I graduated. It has been such a fun day today.
Aaron: Wait a second, really?
Mark: Yeah, seriously.
Aaron: Today was the first day you're back in the building?
Mark: Seriously, I have not been back in this building since I graduated.
Aaron: Oh, I didn't even know that. And I've been here with an incredible conversation you get to listen to between you and Peter.
Mark: That's right. So I got to meet Peter last year.
Aaron: I heard about him through my daughter, who has been attending NC State Poole School of Management. Am I saying it right?
Mark: Yeah, Poole.
Aaron: Poole.
Mark: Just Poole.
Aaron: Poole. Poole School.
Mark: Poole.
Aaron: And Peter came to one of our events and—
Mark: Yeah
Aaron: ... we really hit it off. So I said, "You've got to come onto our show and share about what you're doing at NC State, and then something about your passion as well."
Mark: Yeah.
Aaron: There's a little hint on that.
Mark: A little hint.
Aaron: A little teeny hint.
Mark: It's a cool passion.
Aaron: It's a really cool— I'm like jealous of it.
Mark: I don't think anybody would even guess.
Aaron: Right.
Mark: Right.
Aaron: So, we also got to teach a class today, too.
Mark: Yeah, which you did great at, by the way.
Aaron: Thank you.
Mark: Not gasing you up too much, but it was a great conversation. Took me back to being in these same lecture halls and listening to all of the marketing and branding education.
Aaron: I think that's what this conversation with Peter was also... It made it really cool and special for me because I'm still a young marketer myself, and it's cool to hear about the different perspectives that people coming up in my generation of marketing are going to have to deal with and think about.
Mark: Yep.
Aaron: And it's all timely and important.
Mark: Yep.
Aaron: Yeah.
Mark: I do agree, and Peter did talk to us a lot about where his foundations are coming from as well—
Aaron: Yeah
Mark: ... and what the next generation of marketers are—
Aaron: Yeah
Mark: ... going to be learning about.
Aaron: Yeah.
Mark: So here we are on the Sound of Inbound. We are very excited to have you join us, with Peter Verhallen, with NC State University.
Part 2: The Interview
Aaron (Host) & Peter (Guest)
Aaron: Hello, everybody, and welcome to another very special episode of the Sound of Inbound, here on the campus of North Carolina State University. I am joined by the one and the only, I'm calling him the Viceroy of marketing and branding—Peter Verhallen. And he just had me teach one of his classes today. It was Business 30... or Marketing—
Peter: 360
Aaron: 360
Peter: Marketing Methods. Yep.
Aaron: Marketing Methods. Do you think that went well today?
Peter: I think it went phenomenal.
Aaron: Okay.
Peter: I mean, the energy you have here in your show, you brought it straight to the classroom. So ...
Aaron: Yeah. So today was a very special day because today was the very last day of class. And I'm very excited that you invited me to be here on such a special day, and I hope that we've left a good impression together for your students as they enter into their finals and then move into the next year at NC State. So thank you for that.
Peter: Thank you, too. If I may interject, class evaluations are being filled out right now. So having you come in and give a great performance, great insights—
Aaron: Oh, five stars?
Peter: HelpSmarts.
Aaron: Right.
Peter: And so it's a win-win.
Aaron: Smash like and subscribe. Marketing Methods, 310?
Peter: 360.
Aaron: 360.
Peter: 360.
Aaron: 360.
Peter: Yep.
Aaron: Okay. So today here, on the Sound of Inbound, we're going to be talking with Peter about where marketing is starting its discussions here in the classroom, and where those folks are going to be looking for their careers to go next. At Inventive, we of course, have a lot of folks that play in the position of marketing, but we also have folks in writing and design and strategy. And they all have a role in where branding and marketing may go with our clientele. And so what always is interesting to me is like, where does the genesis of people's interest in marketing and branding, and I'm hoping today we talk to Peter about that.
Peter: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: Also, we have a couple of surprises.
Peter: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: Peter has some passions, and they have to do with some really interesting topics that I thought we'll also dig into. And the first thing I thought I would do, I ask all my guests this—Peter, is I want people to get to know you. So maybe you can give us a little bit more of your origin story and how you ended up here at NC State.
Peter: Interesting question, because I can draw this out to two hours or a couple of minutes, and I'll try to give a short story.
Aaron: We want the elevator pitch.
Peter: The elevator pitch. Very focused, very multicultural, let's say. It's not my first time in the United States, so being in North Carolina is actually second time, or technically third time that I've come to the US. I'm from the Netherlands. You can tell by my name, you can tell probably by my accent a little bit. If you pay really close attention to my accent, you'll pick out that there's going to be a bit of German in there.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: Spent a long time in Germany. So born in Netherlands, spent seven years in Germany, moved to the US, spent a number of years in the US as well. West Coast, so West or East, I won't say which one's best. Then moved back to Europe, and finished high school and finished then college as well.
Aaron: Yeah. If I remember correctly, you started off wanting to be almost an entrepreneur though, right?
Peter: Right. Yeah.
Aaron: Yeah, that was kind of your passion—
Peter: Yes
Aaron: ... starting your own business.
Peter: Yeah. Always questioned things—
Aaron: Mm-hmm
Peter: ... and I think entrepreneurs, they like to kind of question why are people buying this, why kind of win-win synergies, right?
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: Value creation, a lot of folks on value exchange. And as a kid, I've always carried that with me. So from a young age, I've been dealing in trading in collectibles. I've been trying to optimize on certain weird short-lived business models, that I'm happy to go into depending where the discussion goes today. But I've always been, since probably eight, nine years old... I mean, at seven years old, I was selling free travel guides on a sidewalk with my brother in Berlin for, I think it was 40, 50 pfennig. That's a German currency pre-euro. Because they saw us as cute kids trying to sell something—
Aaron: Oh my gosh
Peter: ... that was free from a travel agency around the corner.
Aaron: I didn't know that.
Peter: And then we could go to a candy store and buy candy. And so, that was like the early days of identifying win-win-wins. You're having fun, you're getting something out of it, somebody else is getting something out of it.
Aaron: Yeah. Everyone's happy.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: But what was the journey from going from that to landing in marketing? Because I think you had said, and I do appreciate this, there is a—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... psychology—
Peter: Absolutely
Aaron: ... to the work that we do.
Peter: Absolutely.
Aaron: And I think that's part of your foundational work as well, right?
Peter: It is, yeah. So, I started in business in college thinking—end result, money.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: And I didn't find a connection. I think sometimes the process is more important than the end, and I think in the beginning, I was focused too much on that end, not on the process. Pivoted to a liberal arts undergrad program, University College of Maastricht in the Netherlands, and I did direction more psychology, life sciences.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: At that point, and I was there with my twin brother, and we both were thinking, "Oh, we're going into psychology." Having a twin brother, that's a whole another tangent we can go into.
Aaron: Identical twins?
Peter: Identical twin.
Aaron: Okay. There's another of you out there?
Peter: There is another one of me. And I've had students of mine travel and see the other me and think it's me—
Aaron: Oh my gosh
Peter: ... and then come back to me and say, "Why didn't you respond to me?" Or—
Aaron: Oh my gosh
Peter: ... screaming your name and whatnot.
Aaron: I want to talk about that for a minute. Can we talk about that for a minute?
Peter: Sure, yeah.
Aaron: Because I didn't realize this. So you have a twin.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: So let's just jump for a moment to branding for a second.
Peter: Okay.
Aaron: So if you ... I'm really jumping ahead.
Peter: Yep.
Aaron: But if you had to say you have a brand and your brother has a brand—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... are they different, first?
Peter: So this is a very interesting thing, because from perception, very similar brand.
Aaron: Okay.
Peter: We learned this—I don't know how off I can go in tangents—but let's say if somebody liked me when we were in the dating game—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... and there was no interest on my side, I could see how easily they pivoted to my brother, or the other way around.
Aaron: Oh my gosh.
Peter: So from a perception side—
Aaron: That's terrible
Peter: ... there is some similarity, right?
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: At least in a, let's say, shorter time horizon of exposure. Internally and also from a personality side, we're quite different. I think we have different kind of nature-nurture debate, right? Different nurture at some point, and it translates into different goals and different personality types. So I would say we're inherently different, but from a branding perspective, we were always them. We were always the twins.
Aaron: Oh, wow.
Peter: That lasted for a very long time. Because we went to the same high schools, we had the same friends, we did the same sports. We had very similar hobbies. We went even partly to the same college experience.
Aaron: Oh my gosh.
Peter: Sometimes in the same class. And speaking of psychology, to kind of bring that back, we took a developmental psychology class, and developmental psychology, they love twin studies—
Aaron: Oh, they love twins. I can imagine
Peter: ... and nature-nurture discussion, and—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... there is the professor of that course, and who's in that classroom of, I don't know, 12 to 15 students—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... it's my brother and I. So we always saw that his eyes kind of shifted towards us to observe—
Aaron: What the reaction would be?
Peter: ... how are they responding—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... and how different are they responding? It was interesting.
Aaron: So that was your identity for a long time.
Peter: For a long time, and yeah.
Aaron: So what actually allowed you guys to then start to kind of separate from that and feel—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... like you could have your own brand?
Peter: Yeah. So we lived together, I would say, until we were probably 28. So that says a lot about how close we were.
Aaron: Wow. Yeah.
Peter: Right? And I like to always, when this comes into discussion with friends and such, it really feels like I'm one leg and he was the other, because our existence, we were always together.
Aaron: Yeah. You can always count on each other.
Peter: Yep. You have similar friends, similar engagements, which means usually when you have free time, we had that at the same point in time in the week. And so if I'm going out, he's going to go out.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: He wants to watch a movie, I'll watch a movie with him. You always have somebody else.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: And so the independence which was necessary for us to split was simply nonexistent. And so the nurture part had to slowly teethe that out of us through our engagements, where we started to slowly deviate, and then you get more invested in your other directions, right?
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: And at some point, you're sufficiently divested that you can go all in on one of these areas on your own, and then grow as an individual. And that took a long time for us. Yeah.
Aaron: So is he still in Europe?
Peter: He's in Berlin, yeah.
Aaron: He's in Berlin.
Peter: He hopped around a lot. Spain—he was in Barcelona—London, and then Berlin. Yeah.
Aaron: When his left elbow is bothering him, does he call you and ask if your left elbow is bothering you, too? Or did you just hit it on purpose?
Peter: So the way Sarit, that comes up a lot.
Aaron: I was going to say. Are you guys telepathic? Do you feel each other's—
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: I feel like there's magic with twins. It's like—
Peter: It's like—
Aaron: ... it's like a married couple, right?
Peter: You have so many associations, so many exposures, lived experiences together—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... that in a married couple, if your wife or husband says one or two words, you can almost stop them in their tracks because you know the next five sentences that are going to come out, that they're going in, right?
Aaron: Just by facial cues and everything.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: That was us.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: If I would look at him, I mean, he wouldn't even have to speak. I could know exactly what he was thinking, where he wanted to go, what he wanted to do, and I could just jump in and say, "Let's do it," or something.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: And the same the other way, so. Okay, you're making me, because we talked a lot about brands today—and was finding this kind of funny to bring this up, but a famous brand is a bubble gum in America. Do you know about this bubble gum?
Peter: Riggies, or—
Aaron: Was it Doublemint, I think it was called?
Peter: Doublemint. Oh, Riggies. Was it Spearmint? Doublemint? Something like that.
Aaron: Something like that.
Peter: Yeah. Rizla, yeah.
Aaron: And all right, we'll have to look it up. Put it on the screen. And so that brand celebrated twins.
Peter: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: It was double the pleasure, double the fun.
Peter: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: And they had all these twins featured in the commercials.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: And it was actually kind of a popular commercial.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: And they were always very beautiful twins.
Peter: Naturally.
Aaron: Which really helped as well.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: Okay, so coming back to getting into marketing now. So I'm sure when you started off as an entrepreneur, it involves every aspect of what it takes to run a business. So finance, of course, and planning, and all the logistics and supply chain and things like that nature. Of course, then you find yourself, "Oh my God, there's marketing, there's psychology in all this as well."
Peter: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: So at what point did the pivot happen where you're like, "Wow, I could teach this"?
Peter: So that took a while. So it never pivoted, I would say, directly into the teaching side, but more into the learning and challenging oneself to understand it better. And then once that understanding was there, then the teaching evolved from that.
Aaron: Okay.
Peter: So during the undergrad, let's say, the psychology degree, I was doing a lot of collectibles, also dealing, and during that time, I realized, okay, I have an affinity towards business.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: And so after that degree, I pivoted towards a Master's in Entrepreneurship. Really dove into entrepreneurial theory and also application. And then the pivot really happened because we had this student company. We had liquidated it at some point. I was working with friends on their startups and supporting here and there—
Aaron: Mm-hmm
Peter: ... but I was missing the key ingredients of the right people, the right funding, the right idea, the right timing, right? And so there was this awareness, and I did not want to be a wantrepreneur, somebody who enjoys that lifestyle of—
Aaron: Wait, what is this term? A wantrepreneur?
Peter: Well, I don't know if it's—
Aaron: A want to be an entrepreneur?
Peter: Right.
Aaron: Oh my God, I've never heard that one before.
Peter: You know—
Aaron: I like it.
Peter: Yeah ... and maybe not to go too much on a tangent and that front—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... but I feel there's so much. To get good ideas coming out, you have to network. Right?
Aaron: Sure.
Peter: You have to spar with people. You have to get your idea out and get feedback, and that's all wonderful, but that process is a lot of fun.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Peter: And I feel that some people like that process so much that they linger in that sphere, let's say—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... that social community, kind of forgetting the goal of value creation—
Aaron: Wow
Peter: ... and monetization of that value.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: Right? And so, for me, there was this moment of, okay, well, let's do something. Let's pivot from this.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Peter: The entrepreneurial spirit never escapes. Right? You can always—
Aaron: Oh, of course
Peter: ... find the right mix—
Aaron: Of course, yes
Peter: ... later in life. And so, I actually started looking and preparing into case interviews because I thought, well, you know what? Maybe management consulting is fun. And as I was exploring that and started interviewing with firms, right at that moment, the director of the entrepreneurship master's program had reached out to the entire cohort, and we were a very, very small cohort at the time. There was a PhD in entrepreneurship available. And I thought, that sounds kind of interesting. It seemed.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: Yeah. And actually, to be fair, the MBB firm that I really wanted to work for, it was the very first management consulting firm interview I took, or interviews, and so I showed up from the entrepreneur scene, no tie on. Very easygoing. I thought this was going to be a breeze. Anyway, didn't get an offer. And I thought, okay, so you cannot reapply until the next cycle at the earliest.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: And I had a master's but not an MBA. Right? And at some point, if you want to thrive in that area, you've got to go for an MBA or a PhD.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: And so when this offer came in for an expression of interest for a PhD, I thought, PhD, maybe three years. Sounds cool. So I got in touch with the university.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: And then one thing led to another. They had a PhD in entrepreneurship. They had a PhD in marketing. My background in psychology kicked in. We had discussions. It seemed like a great fit, and then ended up going the route for the PhD in marketing. And actually, at the time, they wanted to set up a center, so they were really attracted by my entrepreneurial profile because they thought, well, you can help us set up—
Aaron: Bring that—
Peter: ... and maybe run this center.
Aaron: Bring that idea. Yes, of course.
Peter: Now, by the time I started the PhD, somebody else had beat us to it. So that never ended up happening.
Aaron: That's the life of an entrepreneur.
Peter: That is, yeah. You go with what you got. You got to try things.
Aaron: So today, do you feel like you're tapping into all these experiences in the class?
Peter: Absolutely.
Aaron: Okay.
Peter: I would say so. Yeah, absolutely.
Aaron: So I want to get into this for a few minutes on just being in the role of a teacher. I think a lot of schools are maybe casted by this sort of perception that they're not looking out enough. They're looking down, or they're being very academic, as people say.
Peter: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Aaron: And that perception of being academic gives us a sense that, wow, they really don't know what's really going on out there. It's all theory. It's in a bubble. So what kind of things do you feel like you're doing to fight against that?
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: And are you fighting against that?
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: Are you trying to fight against that perception?
Peter: So what are we trying to do with theory? We're trying to explain practice. Right? But to be able to make it defensible, we have to test theory, and so we have to simplify and make assumptions, and at some point, there's a disconnect between the assumptions we're making, the simplicity of it, and what we can do in practice. Right?
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: And then you have these evolutions or kind of bubbles that are forming. I try to go back to the root, which is if we're trying to explain the practice, we have to understand the why.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Peter: And so students, they know this about me. I love the why question. I ask the question a lot in my classes, but I also really stress and encourage students to always ask why. If I'm learning this, why am I learning this? Why did this ever come about? And sometimes, in academia, we have incentive structures, and sometimes, they're leaning towards quantity of publications and things like this. And so, the knowledge we have in academia, there are sometimes small holes in there, here and there, but nothing's perfect. So I do challenge students to understand, okay, what do these systems look like, and where are weaknesses to understand whether what you're learning is truly relevant or not. Right? So really question the why.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Peter: But application helps a lot with that, too. Right? So why are we learning this? Why? To understand this in the field.
Aaron: Right.
Peter: Right? So if there is an analytical framework, and this is one thing that I love about consulting frameworks, I love it when things are simplified in a way that it's universally applicable. Like the MECE process from management consulting, mutually exclusive, collectively exhaustive.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: The kind of idea that if you're analyzing anything, which means you're decomposing it into smaller parts—
Aaron: Right
Peter: ... you don't want there to be any overlap between any components because then you're treating something twice. Right?
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Peter: And so mutually exclusive, every component you're looking at has to be mutually exclusive, but you don't want to miss anything, so it has to be collectively, all of it together—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... has to be exhaustive of what it is you're looking at. And I try to encourage that a lot. I feel like I'm going a bit too much maybe on a tangent.
Aaron: No, it's okay. What do you think, if you're breaking it down, though—what are some of the big foundational things that you want to make sure people understand in marketing first?
Peter: Mm-hmm. Let me start there.
Aaron: Yeah. And then I'd like to just follow up by saying what kind of current outside influences have been changing that foundation? Because I'm going to say AI has got to be changing that foundation—I'm understanding.
Peter: Yeah. That's a good—
Aaron: So what are some of the foundational things that you have to teach about when it comes to the marketing foundation?
Peter: Yeah. So I always try to focus on what you can control. Right?
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: So you have to be able to analyze the right—
Aaron: Can we control anything?
Peter: It's a great question. Right?
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: And that's, again, I guess the scope of the business question and the time horizon and what you should focus on.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: Some environments or some industries are slow-moving, and so you can kind of bet on existing structure, and some are faster-moving. But what I try to instill in the students is if there's any business issue you're dealing with, whether it's an opportunity, a threat, it's a touch point between the business or value creation and then environment. And between those two, and you can spend hours analyzing the business, and you can spend hours analyzing the environment. Right? But which of the two is more important? What would you think? What would you say?
Aaron: As a business owner, I was going to answer with something that maybe feels like maybe it's in one of these two categories.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: We're in the business of convincing a lot.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: But I need the data to get me there.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: So the analytics is the numbers have to speak a story as much as—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... our instincts speaking a story.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: So analytics, I would just say by the numbers. I would go with that first. So understanding that industry to a point that can be somewhat binary.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: And that's a safe space for many of our customers.
Peter: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: Because the mushy, wishy-gushy stuff, they can't measure it.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: So they don't really understand if it has any value whatsoever.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: So for us, when they're thinking about the foundational elements of what marketing's going to bring to the table, they really want me to say at the end of the day, "How much business are we going to get? What's the revenue?"
Peter: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: And I'm like, "The revenue? We haven't even finished designing what your ownership idea is yet."
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: So I almost wish that people would have more of an appreciation that we are trying to understand the industry from a very binary level —what works, what doesn't. Sure, on/off. But at the end of the day, they're coming to us because of our instinct.
Peter: No, it's interesting, I think, because you're highlighting kind of revenue creation, right? And so really more, I don't want to say transactional, obviously through relationship building—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... but maybe more shorter term.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: Right? And then the scope would be on the sales pitch and some of that process, and being able to identify, right, and then highlight value—on both sides. But of course, a business always wants to be around long-term. And so from a strategy perspective, if we're looking at the business and we're looking at the environment, which can we change? What we can influence is the business—
Aaron: Business. We can—
Peter: ... but we can't influence the environment.
Aaron: We can't really. No, we can't.
Peter: I mean, even big brands, big companies like Amazon, they can pump in so much money to create a hype, and surely they can do a short-term pump, right?
Aaron: Sure.
Peter: But even there, in terms of global scale, that's not going to last for long-term, right?
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Peter: That'll be a small little bump and then it'll come back down. Look at the environment and look at the consumer, and try to use that as a starting point, and then build on that and see where the disconnect is and how to connect the business to that. And if you're looking for more shorter-term time horizon, then it's okay, well, we have this happening in the environment—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... in the next year—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... which is maybe things are remaining a little bit more constant, and then focus on how we can maximize our, let's say, differentiation from competitors and focus on the value pitch. But the longer term, really focusing on how might we have to pivot or integrate things like AI.
Aaron: For these days, I find it funny and it's entertaining to me. If you go back about 70 years or so, we're looking at the 1950s or whatever, and people just thought they could put a billboard—
Peter: Mm-hmm
Aaron: ... up on a road and sell—
Peter: Mm-hmm
Aaron: ... more couches, more cars—
Peter: Mm-hmm
Aaron: ... more whatever it is, more shoes.
Peter: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: And there was no nurturing. You're just basically blasting—
Peter: Yep
Aaron: ... ads, and it's the spray and pray, we call it. And nowadays, marketing for me is more of a commercial... It's a bigger vision around... or role, I should say—
Peter: Yep
Aaron: ... around the revenue generation. And it's not just about the awareness. I kind of wish I could've been in the '50s. But walking into a room and just throwing out a crazy idea, and then just running out and they just run an ad, and the job is done.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: And nowadays, it's so much more involving, so much more of—
Peter: Yep
Aaron: ... a commercial initiative.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: And as I said, it's like agencies these days don't seem to survive unless they can really associate themselves with the revenue. Is that part of the conversation that you guys have in the classroom?
Peter: I would say yes. I do think there is still a story element to more mass market awareness.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Peter: Right? You were talking a lot about that today in class. You were using examples from Red Bull and highlighting how it went so far away from just the energy drink—
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: ... right?
Aaron: Yes, exactly.
Peter: And coincidentally, I was at an international case competition in Denmark two weeks ago with a team of our students, and there was one company that was the case sponsor across three cases, AirTox.
Aaron: Okay, yeah.
Peter: And they're a safety shoe company, a manufacturer, right? Developer. Some interesting technologies and such. And they market to everybody. They've got entire buildings covered in their awesome murals and whatnot. They're a very well-known brand in Denmark, but they sell safety shoes, which is relatively niche, right? And that was part of the talk that week, was tell us how to go big—
Aaron: Mm-hmm
Peter: ... to use this brand. And it made me think a lot about Red Bull.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: Their slogan was "Fear nothing," right? And so they're already going into sports—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... into MMA—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... and whatnot. That brand is so much more, right, so much more mass market. Kind of spray and pray, but not really the pray part so much. I think there was a very smart, kind of strategic motive behind—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... let's go wide early—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... and then utilize that for other verticals. And so there is a benefit both ways. Let's see how it pans out for them, but you know.
Aaron: Right. I do feel like, well, in Europe, there are some sports that are a lot more persistent than even in America because traditionally, football in Europe—
Peter: Yep
Aaron: ... it's played for a lot longer—
Peter: Yep
Aaron: ... than you're going to have sports in the United States. And so some brands that associate themselves to those sports actually have a lot more impressions than we might have here in the States for certain things.
Peter: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: If they associate themselves with basketball or football—
Peter: Mm-hmm
Aaron: ... their season is very short-lived.
Peter: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: Oh, sorry, US football.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: American football.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: Anyway, but I guess my point there is the go big, go home for me these days has to do more, has to get a lot deeper than just brand awareness—
Peter: Mm-hmm
Aaron: ... and buying up space—
Peter: Mm-hmm
Aaron: ... and attention. A marketing's role is really pulling people not just into the funnel, but all the way down the funnel.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: And they have a real association to the revenue. I guess the last thing I'll just say about the role you have at NC State, where do you find your inspirations right now? Is it just watching the markets? Any specific markets that you're finding a lot of fascination in right now?
Peter: That's interesting. I talk a lot with students.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: I would say my inspiration comes... I have quite a lot of students also in the BUS 5060 course, for instance.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: And they come with tons of questions. They want advice on new products they're developing—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... on tools that they're using, and every time something comes up that I'm not aware of, I look into it. And so I'm getting a lot of inspiration from my day-to-day operations here at NC State, I would say.
Aaron: And do you feel like they're plugged in?
Peter: They're plugged into their bubbles, right?
Aaron: Yes. Yeah.
Peter: And we have very, let's say, diverse, I would say, student base. So there's different, let's say, bubbles, right?
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Peter: Not just political, right? Also, in terms of interest, in terms of industries—
Aaron: Sure
Peter: ... in terms of areas in the US where they're from, and what's going on there. So...
Aaron: There's a good mix of diversity.
Peter: It is.
Aaron: Insight.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: And perspective.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: So I spoke to some of the students after the class today, and they were coming from different places as well. So there were some finance folks in there, accounting, which I realize are two different things now.
Peter: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: Sorry I grouped them before, but marketing as well, and business.
Peter: Yep.
Aaron: And they have different interests. I think these career paths take them into different industries that can be so varied.
Peter: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: And that's something that I'm not sure if they all really understand or appreciate that yet.
Peter: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: So I'm hopeful that you could bring this to your classes—just to say you have to also pick a niche industry as well—
Peter: Yep
Aaron: ... as picking your path.
Peter: Yep.
Aaron: So to say you're in finance is one thing, but to say that you're finance and housing is different to say that you're finance and shipping, or to say that you're in finance in life sciences like we are.
Peter: Yep.
Aaron: It's such a different world.
Peter: Yep.
Aaron: Or investment versus just doing building out infrastructure.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: So finance has got its own little so many different personalities.
Peter: Yep.
Aaron: And that's something I hope that this next generation of folks that are getting out there—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... that might be worried about some of the technology, which we'll talk about after the break.
Peter: Yeah. If I can put a nice plug for NC State Poole College of Management, we as a college do really well in placing students. Graduation, jobs post-graduation, but also internships. If I'm reflecting back on, first of all, the Dutch culture, Dutch culture when it comes to internships, many are unpaid or underpaid.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: They might have small stipends. It's not a minimum wage or higher kind of situation. At least in my time, there were many students who did not do internships.
Aaron: Wow.
Peter: So the whole exposure through internships to the different areas within finance, within accounting, within marketing—
Aaron: Marketing, yep
Peter: ... wasn't there. And so you start more as a generalist. You have to get lucky where you end up starting, hopefully more generalist, where you get to have a few hats. But if not, you might have to jump around a little bit.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: And here at Poole College, I see that a lot of students, they do an internship and then they're like, "Hmm, this was in investment banking, not really my thing." And then next summer, they're doing an internship somewhere else. They try out something different, and then by the time they graduate, they have a good feeling or at least a better calibration of where they want to be—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... and what path they want to take.
Aaron: Path that they don't want to be.
Peter: Already. Exactly. That's more important.
Aaron: Yeah. I can absolutely appreciate that. This has been great discussion about NC State—
Peter: Yep
Aaron: ... and a little bit about your background.
Peter: Yep.
Aaron: We're going to take a quick break, and after we come back, we're going to talk about your passion—
Peter: Mm-hmm
Aaron: ... which is so different than everything we've been just discussing. So please stay tuned here on the Sound of Inbound. We'll be right back with Peter here at NC State.
Part 3: Passion and Collectibles
Aaron (Host) & Peter (Guest)
Aaron: Hello, everybody. We're back here at NC State on the campus. Actually, we're housed in the Poole School. Are we in the Poole School right now?
Peter: Yep, we're in Poole College of Management.
Aaron: We're in the Poole College of Management, in a secret little hideaway that Peter has given us access to for today's podcast, and I really do appreciate you having us and hosting us here on the campus today.
Peter: Thanks for having me on the show.
Aaron: So yes, no problem. So the thing for this next half of our show is to talk about passion. Whenever you're thinking about a brand that you really associate yourself with, it actually evokes a feeling. And on my class today that I provided to Peter on the BUS 360, did I get that right now?
Peter: Yep, you did.
Aaron: We talked a lot about the story and brand, and I think a lot of folks might think, okay, well, do all brands evoke a feeling? Of course not. But if you have a passion about something, certain brands might really take you back, and I think sports do this in a great way. Sometimes a movie studio. If I say Marvel—
Peter: Mm-hmm
Aaron: ... people immediately go, "Oh my God, those movies are hysterical," or they're very action-driven, whatever it might be. But we're going to talk about one of your passions today—
Peter: Mm-hmm
Aaron: ... which I'm very excited about. And I'm not sure if everybody knows about this. So I think, first off, explain what you do on the side—
Peter: Yep
Aaron: ... and what you have been doing. You hinted at this during the first half—
Peter: Yep
Aaron: ... that you had a little business that was going. And it was about collectibles, right?
Peter: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: But specifically, what type of collectibles are you passionate about?
Peter: Nintendo. Well, let's say classic video game collectibles.
Aaron: Okay. But Nintendo?
Peter: But very focused on origin Nintendo items. Let's say the first decade of their existence.
Aaron: Okay. And what about that first era of Nintendo are you so excited about?
Peter: I would have to say that it almost started like a tangent adjacent to a later era of Nintendo. I wasn't exposed very much to the original era of Nintendo—
Aaron: Yep
Peter: ... until later, when I was seeking out a particular item that was tied to a later era. But at some point, it turned into amassing items from that era, sorting it, the collector mindset kicked in. You start really collecting it, recognizing it, pursuing it, documenting it, and then a whole other set of, let's say, associations developed—
Aaron: Of course
Peter: ... alongside it.
Aaron: So I planned to bring in a couple of things today.
Peter: Okay.
Aaron: But I decided to focus in on one thing, which I'm going to bring out in a moment.
Peter: Yep.
Aaron: Stay tuned. I'm just baiting.
Peter: I'm so curious.
Aaron: But I'm going to first ask, it's a fanboy question.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: So I hope I'm not putting you too much on the spot when I ask this.
Peter: No, that's fine.
Aaron: Do you know what the most successful franchise game that Nintendo has ever had, especially in that first era, like 1980s? What would be their most popular game?
Peter: I would have to say, I'm inclined to say Super Mario Brothers.
Aaron: Okay.
Peter: But I wonder if—I don't think Legend of Zelda would've outsold Super Mario Brothers, so I'm inclined to say Super Mario Brothers or Donkey Kong. It depends a little bit also if we include—
Aaron: What was that? What did you just say under your breath?
Peter: Donkey Kong. Because of the arcade sales, right? But that predates a little bit the home console market.
Aaron: So we did our research.
Peter: Yep.
Aaron: And we found out that this game, Donkey Kong, is literally—
Peter: Oh, very nice. Yeah
Aaron: ... the most popular game—
Peter: That's awesome
Aaron: ... that Nintendo has ever created.
Peter: Yep.
Aaron: And because you said arcade, this is a—
Peter: Yep
Aaron: ... mini arcade, right?
Peter: Yeah. I recognize it.
Aaron: Do you have a history of this device?
Peter: I do. Yeah. This is Coleco. They brought this out, I believe, I want to say 1982.
Aaron: Yep, 1981, I think.
Peter: 1981. Okay.
Aaron: Yep.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: Yeah. Very cool. So this was pre-industry crash. The market was... And this is not Nintendo's fault. Nintendo actually revitalized the market.
Aaron: Yep.
Peter: But up until, let's say, 1983, Atari was, of course, and Coleco had the ColecoVision. They were putting out a lot of 8-bit—very, let's say, rudimentary technology-wise video games. So the hardware was very constraining, right?
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: So you had to put in a lot of time to create some games that were actually fun to play.
Aaron: Yep.
Peter: And there were developers that weren't doing it, but they were selling games by having awesome cover art, right? And so people are going to stores, paying $60. There's some amazing cover art.
Aaron: No, this is great. And this was a great game, right?
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: So Donkey Kong itself is a bit of a... that's what Nintendo was known for and why they revitalized the whole video gaming market, was because they had quality control. They made sure anything that went out, especially with the Nintendo name, and that's why at some point they had the seal of quality. That was a titular brand, right?
Peter: Oh, wow. I didn't realize that. The Nintendo seal of quality—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... didn't exist before that.
Aaron: I remember that now. Yeah.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: I remember seeing that. Atari didn't have that.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: ColecoVision had some other games as well. They didn't have that, right?
Peter: And so people went out, were buying, there wasn't quality control. They were paying a lot of money for these games, played it in, kids weren't happy, parents weren't happy. Video game market crashes, and then Nintendo revitalizes it.
Aaron: So, this specific model—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... and this specific game, I have a quick story I want to share with you. Because you said to me in one of our pre-interviews—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... that you had a passion that was about Nintendo.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: And I about went, "No way." And so I went back, and I found a box. I wish I brought it today.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: And I found out that my little handheld games that I had back in the 1980s, if that doesn't date me—
Peter: Mm-hmm
Aaron: ... were made by Nintendo.
Peter: Yeah. The Game & Watch. Yeah.
Aaron: And back in the early 2000s, when we were living here, we had a garage sale.
Peter: Mm-hmm.
Aaron: And my mom had given me back all my little old arcade games, and we sold these during a garage sale.
Peter: That's awesome.
Aaron: How ridiculous was I? There's a reason for the form factor, which I want to talk to—
Peter: Yep
Aaron: ... in a minute. So the reason I loved this game growing up—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... and I couldn't believe it was on Nintendo. I'm just going to get to the point.
Peter: Yeah, yeah.
Aaron: The point was, I couldn't believe these were all made by Nintendo.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: I thought, "There's no way all the games I was obsessed with when I was younger were all Nintendo games." But here we are. And so when I was growing up, I really, really wanted to get an arcade system.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: My friends had either more money or more opportunities and more access, so they had opportunities to buy these things, and I didn't. But I had a couple of really significant milestones as I was growing up, and my parents and some of my extended family knew about my passion—
Peter: Yep
Aaron: ... about owning one of these. And so they put a lot on it. Now I had to just behave.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: I couldn't bite my nails. I couldn't do all these little funny things—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... as a kid. I had to earn it. And then at that point, they still didn't tell me if I was going to get it or not. And then one day, one of my extended family came over to the house, I forgot if it was a birthday or whatnot—
Peter: Mm-hmm
Aaron: ... and I unwrapped this, and I just freaked out. The reason it's in this form factor—
Peter: Yep
Aaron: ... is because it looked like—
Peter: An arcade. Yeah
Aaron: ... right, it looks like the arcade.
Peter: Yep.
Aaron: So I think today it would be like, "Why is it that shape?"
Peter: Yep.
Aaron: "That's goofy." But this—
Peter: Yep
Aaron: ... meant a lot to me because the only place I could ever play Donkey Kong—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... was in a place that I had to stick a quarter in, right? But speaking of today, and obviously, branding and the power of branding, and I'm sure we'll go in the direction of nostalgia, right? The nostalgia of arcades has come back, right? So arcades started going out of business.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: Now, then barcades sort of kicking in because, hey, the people that loved arcades, now they're drinking age. Maybe they don't have kids yet. Now they have kids. Maybe they didn't do escape.
Peter: But they're getting out of the house.
Aaron: They're getting out of the house.
Peter: And then—
Aaron: Yeah. And it's a shared experience.
Peter: It is a shared experience.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: And at some point, a company, 1UP Arcade, I don't know if you're familiar with them—
Aaron: No, no
Peter: ... they started developing arcades. And I don't know exactly when, but probably around 10 years ago, maybe 15 years, and they had a booming market, especially in the US because arcade, I think, culture was very strong, especially in the United States.
Aaron: I was wondering if you're willing to go head-to-head.
Peter: I am.
Aaron: Not only did I have—
Peter: You got batteries in there?
Aaron: ... online, but it actually works.
Peter: Oh, no way. That's awesome.
Aaron: So I figured we will try to see if we could play one round and see who gets a higher score.
Peter: Sounds good.
Aaron: If my little friends here would mind grabbing a camera and coming in close to check this out, it'd be great. So I'm going to have... Do you want me to go first, or you want to go first?
Peter: Go ahead. You have the honors.
Aaron: Okay. For everybody that doesn't know about this game, Donkey Kong, I feel like, do we have to explain it? I don't even think—
Peter: I think to some people, yeah. They might, yeah.
Aaron: Your whole job is you have this little dude that'll be on the bottom, and then these little barrels, right?
Peter: Yep.
Aaron: What's in the barrels? Do you know?
Peter: They're like TNT. Think about like TNT barrels.
Aaron: Oh, TNT barrels. Yeah. They're going to be dropped by none other than Donkey Kong here at the top, which was—
Peter: Yep
Aaron: ... inspired by King Kong.
Peter: With the princess.
Aaron: Yep. And he's protect... Well, he's stolen this little princess up here, Blondie. And so you're trying to get from the bottom of the level to the top just to try to reach her. That's the only thing. And during the entire time these barrels are flying down, you got to avoid them.
Peter: And you want to know another fun fact? Before this guy was called Mario, he was actually called Jumpman.
Aaron: Oh, yeah?
Peter: So for Donkey Kong, he was called Jumpman. And it's actually the first game. So when people ask the question, "Well, what's the very first Super Mario game or Mario game?"
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: It's actually Donkey Kong.
Aaron: All right.
Peter: And then you had Mario Brothers and then Super Mario Brothers and—
Aaron: So he is the inspiration for Mario?
Peter: He is, but at that time, he was not Mario yet. And when they gave him a name for Mario Brothers, that was actually based off of, if I recall correctly, a warehouse worker in New York where they did the test launch with Nintendo, with the NES console in the—
Aaron: That's incredible.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: So come on in. I'm going to try to play over my shoulder here. Oh my gosh. This is showing my age. I feel like I have to wear glasses. It's so small. Is that horrible? It's probably horrible.
Peter: No. It is pretty small.
Aaron: All right. Let me give myself the best shot.
Peter: It's a nice resolution, though.
Aaron: So he should appear at the bottom. Okay, got to see which way that barrel's going. Oh, there you go. Can I get the hammer?
Peter: Nope.
Aaron: Oh, I got it.
Peter: Oh, nice.
Aaron: Okay, I got 200 points. Oh, my God. Ah. All right. Close call. So I got 200 points.
Peter: Well done.
Aaron: All right, your turn. All right. Oh, wait. We should just reset it because we got to see what he's going to get, right? All right. Here we go.
Peter: All right. Let's see it.
Aaron: And that's how you reset it. You turn it off, and you turn it back on.
Peter: Off and on.
Aaron: All right.
Peter: She says, "Help." Wait for it. Uh-oh, here comes the barrel.
Aaron: Make sure you get that jump.
Peter: I got it. I got it.
Aaron: Oh, no. Ah. How many points?
Peter: I think you got—
Aaron: ... did it reset?
Peter: I think you got 200 like I did.
Aaron: Yeah. All right. We'll let it go.
Peter: Not bad.
Aaron: We'll check the tape. Take one. Take the second take there.
Peter: Thanks a lot for bringing that. That's awesome.
Aaron: Yeah, that was great fun. That's so cool. Yeah. Yeah. What I didn't realize growing up was how much I would connect with this because—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... I had to work so hard to get it.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: And nowadays things are just so much more instant—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... than they are back then.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: You actually had to earn it. You had to go through all sorts of gates, either because—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... you had to get out in the world and go to an arcade and actually see these things—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... and then wait in line to play it.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: It's like all that anticipation leading up to the moment—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... when you finally get to play the thing built up so much value.
Peter: Yep.
Aaron: So to have this opportunity to bring it home and not have all those barriers was just—
Peter: Yep
Aaron: ... wild for me.
Peter: And it creates, in a way, if you think about all those barriers, just for one item, let's say, right? Or one console with one game.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: If you want to then have two consoles, right, that's a lot of effort. So the switching cost is so high. And that's when you had the Nintendo fanboys and the Sega fanboys in the '90s, right? You had these camps.
Aaron: Pick your poison.
Peter: Pick your poison and stick with it.
Aaron: Yeah. So these days, are you still involved in any of the collectibles?
Peter: Yes, I am. Yeah.
Aaron: Okay. So do you have any fun stories about how much you've had to go through to get something you were seeking?
Peter: So I would say, this is the most recent story.
Aaron: Okay.
Peter: I use shipping consolidation services—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... for different regions that are harder to get. So let's say there's an item I really want, it's in South America somewhere, in Argentina or let's say, as an example, in Europe. Now that I'm based in the United States, let's say I want something from Spain, and I want something from France, and I want something from Italy. There are services that—
Aaron: I'm smiling because it's got to be about the chase at this point, right?
Peter: The chase is awesome. Absolutely.
Aaron: Yeah. Okay.
Peter: Finding rarities, finding obscure items, and the challenge of making it work. I've always enjoyed that. So trying to identify and understand all the logistics service providers in a particular region in the world, all the payment processing providers that you can utilize, and how to connect the dots, and whether you need to get in contact with a company to help you source that item or not. But currently, I'm using these consolidation services. Main reason for that is many sellers still don't ship international or they're avoiding uncertainty. Right? And so there's a lot of also selling platforms that operate only nationally or domestically, and so these services are a must. Well, I had a shipment from the UK that was stuck in US customs now with the new tariffs and all that kind of stuff. The tariff stuff worked out, and that was paid for, and all was good, but then all kinds of weird processes happened around, well, there's an item that has 1% of wood. Do you have certification of where that wood came from?
Aaron: Oh my gosh.
Peter: And we're talking going back to, collectible, 30, 40 years old, right?
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: So doing all the deep diving to convince the customs of this—
Aaron: Wow
Peter: ... and still it gets returned on its way to the consolidation service in the UK. So then I thought, "Well, this was such a headache. I can't risk this. You know what? I'll forward it on to family in Europe." Same story. I just found out yesterday it's been returned. It got stuck in customs, this time in Germany.
Aaron: Oh.
Peter: They had all the paperwork, et cetera. And every time you're paying ridiculous shipping fees, you're paying import fees.
Aaron: Oh my God.
Peter: You're dealing with so many hours.
Aaron: What do you do?
Peter: I'm saying this not as like a fun story, but— ... the headaches you sometimes have to go through, where then I start second guessing, and especially my wife starts second guessing my—
Aaron: Why are we doing this, Mark?
Peter: ... yeah, my hobby or whatever you want to call it these days.
Aaron: So what would you say that you were successfully able to get ahold of, that you were very excited about?
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: What would be the one item—
Peter: Very excited
Aaron: ... that you got that you would say, "Oh my God, yeah, I finally got this piece"?
Peter: So there is an item, and anyone watching this, this actually I've not shared this with any of my collector friends.
Aaron: Oh, we got the scoop on this?
Peter: Yeah, so focused on other things. You're going to get the scoop on this.
Aaron: Okay, maybe we can get a picture we can put up on screen when you say it.
Peter: This is actually quite epic, I would say.
Aaron: Okay.
Peter: This is going to be a bit of a drop.
Aaron: Okay, tell us.
Peter: So there are still games being discovered every now and again. Usually not a new game in terms of software, but maybe a new variation that was released in a small batch—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... maybe at the very tail end of a release in a particular country or something. So a variation like a box, let's say box art or something that hasn't been seen before. That still happens to this day. Right? So then it's a one of one variation.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: From the '80s, from the '90s, et cetera. But one of the last games to be discovered, this was software that didn't exist in the 8-bit Nintendo NES, what we call 72-pin. It's the format that we u—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... that was used in the United States, in Europe, and in Australia. It did exist in Japan and let's say Asian regions where they use 60-pin format.
Aaron: These are the old cartridges that flipped up?
Peter: Cartridges that you put in.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: Yep. You have to flip the top and then stick them in. That game had never been found in that format—
Aaron: Which game?
Peter: ... until—
Aaron: Oh, you haven't revealed it yet.
Peter: It's Commando de Lobos. Commando de Lobos. De Lobos in Spanish.
Aaron: Okay.
Peter: And it's from Spain, and it's from a publisher that has already very rare games. So there were some games that were very hard to find from this publisher in Spain. They only released these in the Spanish market called Glact Video or Fotopak was the company, and they had a partnership with a company, two companies actually, NTC and TXC in Taiwan, and they imported and then created their own brand, and even created their own adaptation of one of the games for the Spanish market.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: So they're a legit, let's say, company in Spain putting these on the market.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: They're called unlicensed games because this was without the approval or the seal of quality from Nintendo, which is also why they had lower production runs, because Nintendo had in their model minimum batch production numbers—
Aaron: Sure
Peter: ... right? To make it all make sense. There was this game that was found, I believe it was in 2000... I want to say 2019, for the very first time. I believe it was... no, it was, I believe, found with a box, but the cartridge had no label on it. So the person who found it wasn't even sure is this a prototype from a development stage. Right? Did it ever hit the market or not? So one of a kind, and that was on my wish list. Right? As a collector, now there's a game I don't have.
Aaron: Okay, yeah.
Peter: Right? And I'm going for a global complete set, and so I'm like, "Oh, man, I'll probably never find it." A year ago, from an unbeknownst seller in the Spanish market, boxed with a label on the cartridge, to me confirming that it was a retail release. We have evidence from advertisements in catalogs that this company was selling a gun, which is also extremely rare, and I have that already in the collection. I had that already in the collection. So I knew that existed, and they sold the gun with a game. That's all it said, with game. Con juego.
Aaron: And it was this game?
Peter: But they didn't say which game, and so the assumption—
Aaron: Oh
Peter: ... was this was a light gun game.
Aaron: Sure.
Peter: Right? So, the dots kind of connected. So there was some... We could speculate, probably it was a retail release, and it was just very, very rare. But now we have it confirmed, and now I have that game in Europe. I did not take the chances with this—
Aaron: To bring it to the States
Peter: ... of bringing it to the States.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: I had it sent to family in Europe.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: It's there safe and sound. And that is probably—from the last, let's say, 12 months or so, the coolest item to add to the collection.
Aaron: That's amazing.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: So would these games still work, do you think?
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: That's another awesome thing when people say these games are not working.
Peter: If it's a licensed, let's say, stamp of approval from Nintendo game, and they have certain shapes—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... and you can tell that when they're official, I have not had a game that does not work.
Aaron: Oh my gosh. I love to hear that.
Peter: So you might have to... Yeah. Absolutely.
Aaron: That's insane.
Peter: Talk about quality control.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: You might have to clean them. But the benefit of that is if someone... these consoles, they can get dusty and dirty.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: And so they won't actually play the games. It doesn't mean the games are defective.
Aaron: Sure.
Peter: So when a seller is saying, "Well, this game is defective," I always knew, hey, if I can get it for 10% of the price, I can make it work.
Aaron: Those cartridges have got to be so hearty—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... because knowing your audience, people would just throw those things across the room.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: They hate the game. They lose something, and they take it out—
Peter: So—
Aaron: ... just chuck it at their friends.
Peter: Yeah. You learn a lot through global dealing in—I don't want to say dealing and wheeling, but let's say dealing with buyers, sellers around the world, and also items that were put on the market around the world because, for instance, it's very cultural how you handle goods, right? In some countries, people have a bit less money. Lower salaries. If we think in Europe versus the US, for instance, let's say—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... at least in certain career paths, salaries are higher in the US. We're more capitalist, maybe more consumer society, where it's the focus on the next thing and what to do to get there, that we don't...
Aaron: Put a true value.
Peter: But I'm thinking of collectibles, for instance—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... because you're saying, like these cartridges, they had to withstand a lot.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: In the US, it's from my experience, buying a collectible, let's say for 20 years, it's much harder to find something that was very well taken care of, in mint condition in the US, than, for instance, Germany. Almost every game you'll find in Germany will be well taken care of.
Aaron: Put in a nice container—
Peter: And that's a mix—
Aaron: ... chuck it around.
Peter: I think it's a mix of social norms. It's a mix of culture. It's a mix of climate. The cooler temperatures also helped. It helped keep the cartridges from discoloring and yellowing over time.
Aaron: Well, it's consumerism.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: It's like, I want the next new thing.
Peter: And that's a part of it, too.
Aaron: I want the next new thing.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: And they don't value it as much, but—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... so I love this because I think just to wrap it all up on the brand side of things, you are both celebrating a brand, respecting it.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: But you, I go back to this: You just love the chase.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: Because I said this in your class this morning, that you could go and find an object like this.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: It's just plastic.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: And it's got some batteries in it.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: But once you put a story on it, it becomes—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... something so different.
Peter: Absolutely.
Aaron: And so I'd almost feel like when you sell—is it Commando Del Lobo?
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: Is that it?
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: That it has so much more intrinsic value because of—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... all the effort you went through—
Peter: Absolutely
Aaron: ... to get the thing.
Peter: Absolutely.
Aaron: And then the hystericalness or the convenience of the fact that it was kind of—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... slid in with this light gun.
Peter: Yep.
Aaron: Was the light gun for that Duck Hunt game?
Peter: So—
Aaron: Would you use it with... Is it Duck Hunt game?
Peter: It is. Duck Hunt was the first game—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... for the Zapper, right?
Aaron: Okay, yeah.
Peter: The NES Zapper, the light gun.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: And then you have various knock-offs, some licensed, some, let's say, stamp of approval of Nintendo—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... some not.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: Some better quality, some worse. And this was kind of an Uzi. So this looked too real. So I don't know if you know the story, that in Japan, the light gun was actually a revolver.
Aaron: Oh, was it?
Peter: Yeah, but it looked too much like a real weapon for—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... the US market, and so they created this kind of space age-looking—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... Zapper for the US market.
Aaron: Yeah. I just want to mention, though. So this is in the '80s. At the time, we had a TV that I still had to stand up—
Peter: Yep
Aaron: ... and change the channels.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: I had to go over to the TV—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... and actually turn the dial.
Peter: Oh, yeah.
Aaron: And to have a game that comes out where you could—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... stand back and shoot a gun at ducks—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... that was like, blowing my mind.
Peter: Duck Hunt. Yeah, that was awesome, right?
Aaron: Can you imagine?
Peter: Such simple technology. Yeah.
Aaron: Things that have changed over the years.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: Okay.
Peter: Yeah.
Part 4: Looking Forward (AI and Advice)
Aaron (Host) & Peter (Guest)
Aaron: All right. So before we wrap up, I always like to—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... ask a couple more questions on—
Peter: Yep
Aaron: ... well, two questions. I'm going to ask about AI and then—
Peter: Yep
Aaron: ... your advice for those that are graduating this year for NC State. Where do you think the AI is going to be—
Peter: Mm-hmm
Aaron: ... in the next year? So you're coming from your—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... perspective and how you might use it, how you might—
Peter: Yep
Aaron: ... teach about it—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... and what you've heard about it. I'm sure you're trying different platforms, but—
Peter: Yep
Aaron: ... where do you think AI's going to be from today?
Peter: Yep.
Aaron: We are currently filming this in April of 2026.
Peter: Yep.
Aaron: Where do you think it's going to be in April 2027?
Peter: Yep. It's evolving very quickly. And I think the very first starting point was really getting input, maybe optimizing a piece of text like, "Oh, I have this email. I'll make it look better for this and this purpose."
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: And very simple queries. And now, you hear people using it as their psychologist, psychiatrist. It's going off maybe even some dangerous directions.
Aaron: Crazy.
Peter: And it's evolved from text-based to visuals to video development to... And I see this in the students. Our top students that are super, want to be at the forefront of everything. The lead users of these platforms. They're helping me understand it because they're diving deep. I wish I... Maybe I should more.
Aaron: It's incredible, right?
Peter: But it's incredible what you can do. But it's really moving more to this visual, and I think also audio space. So my prediction would be in a year from now—and I hope it goes in this direction. We're already talking to Alexa. Alexa had this update, I think it was four months ago, at least I have it in my household.
Aaron: Oh, we do, too.
Peter: They're like, "Do you want to upgrade to the latest one?" I said, "Sure." And then I try to speed up the speed of talking so you can maximize efficiency. But what I recognized really quickly is this is this great dialogue now, and it's verbal, it's audio, but Alexa—not to put it down or anything, but I don't think it's at the level of some of the other—
Aaron: So you're saying that it's going to move to much more conversational.
Peter: Much more conversational, and—
Aaron: Yeah, and you're not really typing it in anymore.
Peter: Right, because—
Aaron: We're just talking to it.
Peter: Right.
Aaron: Wow.
Peter: And the same way that a lot of people—I see it in the students, I see it in colleagues—they're going speech-to-text.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: At the end of the day, typing is slow.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: And we saw it already in applications like WhatsApp, like messaging apps where you can send voice messages. Sometimes it felt easier to send a voice message than it did to type something.
Aaron: Yeah. Which I know, on the receiver's end, was never fun. It's a different way of thinking.
Peter: Yep.
Aaron: So it's like, for me, I can prepare, and I can control, and I can read. I usually type my emails almost backwards. I've told that to people, too. It's like when I write an email, I read it again, I'm like, "Well, that should be at the top of this message, not at the bottom."
Peter: Yep.
Aaron: And I re-sort my thoughts.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: And when I'm thinking about trying to use a tool more conversationally—
Peter: Mm-hmm
Aaron: ... I would wonder, would it think I'm crazy? Because I'm just like—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... I'm all over the place. I would never have that ability. Maybe it's just a different way to thinking about how to—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... approach the tool and re-wiring our own brains, no pun intended.
Peter: And but that's—
Aaron: On how to use AI, yeah
Peter: ... and that's a big constraint I see, that I think that constraint is going to be highlighted more and more and more, which is what are the limitations in terms of the value we can get out of it? Right now, we're getting so much value. We're constantly seeing more value.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: So let's say there might maybe be diminishing returns of understanding it more and more, in terms of at some point, you have a good understanding of what you can get out of it. Through that process, we're also identifying what we can't get out of it, where the constraints are, and where we can properly differentiate, as a human being, the value add of us as agents using AI as opposed to having AI dominate, right—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... the workplace. And so for students that are graduating, because AI has almost this tendency to go towards singularity, right? In a sense that the advice you're getting, maybe somebody else is getting it.
Aaron: Mm-hmm.
Peter: And so it is streamlining our thoughts, our mindsets, the associations we're creating through our conversations and our interactions with it, and that is kind of dangerous. So I would stress, be different. Try to, and that's getting out of your comfort zone.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: And that means not just digital, right?
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: Also offline.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: Talk to people.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: Go to different countries. Do different crazy things, like skydiving or something that is so far out of AI—that you have these different perspectives, and you can pivot between them, and you can have these different lenses so that you're not, let's say, too dominated by the lens that's going to pull you into one bubble. And maybe if I can tie that to a collecting, since we talked all about collecting. The first, let's say, artificial intelligence in search results in, let's say secondary market channels like eBay with best match results that were coming out—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... they were not picking up on the true rarities that many people were looking for because these items were so rare that they didn't enter the dataset, right?
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: So what happened at that point was, it's optimized for revenue, but it wasn't—
Aaron: Mass volume
Peter: ... because of the... Right.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: Masses as opposed to—
Aaron: Yeah, rarity
Peter: ... truly understanding.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: And what's interesting is that new collectors that entered the market, because this algorithm was driving values up on some of these mass items, while actually diminishing the values of some of the rarities, which was great for the people who have been in the collecting scene for a long time because like, hey, this is going under the radar, right?
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: But what it also did was it changed the dynamics of how things were being valued, because often we're looking at price signals, past price signals, right, to determine what we should pay for something.
Aaron: Demand, essentially.
Peter: Yep, and that, too.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: What's hot, what's not.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: And so, it was just very interesting to see what that did and how it pulled even more people towards that component and removing from the obscure and also very value-adding components.
Aaron: Gave you an opportunity, though.
Peter: Right, so kind of the singularity.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: And I'm afraid of too much of that happening, and I encourage diversity.
Aaron: I am, too. Diversity of thought, diversity of ideas, diversity of approach, diversity... And so I hope the market won't condense into a couple really big players. I hope it will stay somewhat diverse.
Aaron: Yeah. I'll kind of end—
Peter: Mm-hmm
Aaron: ... with this, too. I think physically being in a school—
Peter: Mm-hmm
Aaron: ... and in a classroom and getting to meet folks like yourself—
Peter: Mm-hmm
Aaron: ... and getting to be amongst other like-minded folks is something that AI should never replace.
Peter: Yeah.
Aaron: And I hope that the experience of actually going to college is something people still value quite a bit going forward—
Peter: Yep
Aaron: ... and there isn't any diminishing returns on the live events and the live interaction, that I don't want people to feel like they should be more in a cocoon.
Peter: Yep.
Aaron: I hope that AI actually enables us to do things that we felt were very kind of trite and—
Peter: Mm-hmm
Aaron: ... laborious, and let it do that work—
Peter: Mm-hmm
Aaron: ... while I get to go out and do more things.
Peter: Yep.
Aaron: And maybe enjoy more life and do—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... things that I'm really passionate about like—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... collecting Nintendo.
Peter: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Playing a one-on-one match.
Aaron: You had a very dynamic class today, and I think there's a lot of opportunities for—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... a lot of hope, I'll say. A lot of hope in the—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... next generation of folks that are going to come out there and—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... hopefully make a difference, too, and get a chance to pivot and be part of these industries and—
Peter: Yep
Aaron: ... make their mark.
Peter: Yeah. And you heard it today, right, in the brunch before the class, one student, you were asking a question to everybody, do you prefer home office work or in-office work?
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: And I think it seemed like the sentiment was very much—
Aaron: They want to get out there.
Peter: They want to, yep. They, we're really surprised that people were—
Aaron: They want to be seen and—
Peter: They want to be seen, and they think that—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... it's the learn by proxy and also the experiential component of it—
Aaron: Yeah
Peter: ... that you cannot recreate by just having digital interactions with people.
Aaron: Yeah.
Peter: So yes. The future is—
Aaron: There were some other discussions during the class today when I asked everybody to raise their hand if they've used their phone. I didn't get a lot—
Peter: Yeah
Aaron: ... of hands on that, though. So you kind of still wish people would pick up the phone.
Peter: Yeah. That is true.
Aaron: Peter, this has been great. It's been a lot of fun. Thank you so much for joining us here on the podcast.
Peter: Thank you for having me.
Aaron: Yes, absolutely. Wish you all the best, and of course, you get a break coming up a little bit.
Peter: Yep.
Aaron: Or are you going to be teaching summer classes, too?
Peter: I will be teaching, but asynchronously.
Aaron: Oh, you're going to stop.
Peter: So I'll be international, doing some things, too. Okay. Very excited for some—
Aaron: A broad—
Peter: ... projects.
Aaron: If you haven't brought your passion into the classroom, I think people would find that very fascinating. Yep. So I think you should bring a little more Nintendo into the conversation.
Peter: Yeah. I've been inspired, so—
Aaron: Okay.
Peter: ... I'll do my best moving forward.
Aaron: Thank you so much for joining us, Peter.
Peter: Thank you. Appreciate it.
Aaron: All right. So please, everybody, this has been a great conversation with Peter today. If you want to see more Sound of Inbound, check out soundofinbound.com. If you want to hear more about what Peter's up to, you can check him out on LinkedIn. We'll put the link below. You can also find him on the NCSU website here at the Poole School College of Management.
Peter: College of Management.
Aaron: Yep.
Peter: Poole College in short.
Aaron: Poole College in short. Here in Raleigh, North Carolina. So thank you again for joining us. If you want to head out onto all your favorite podcast systems, , YouTube, Instagram, LinkedIn, we're there, too. And we very much enjoy if you'd come subscribe. Smash that like button, as we like to say. So thanks for joining us here on the Sound of Inbound. And go Pack.
Peter: Yeah. Go Pack. That's great
