Unbound Unlocked: Klemen & Tonya

AI agents are changing how marketing teams create content, but the real advantage lies in knowing where automation ends and human judgment begins. Tanya Wigmore and Klemen Hrovat share practical insights on HubSpot, conversational search, the evolution of forms into chat experiences, and why clean data matters more than ever.

Tanya brings more than a decade of experience in the HubSpot ecosystem and an agency perspective, while Klemen offers a builder’s view of AI agents and production-ready workflows. Together, they explore how teams can use transcripts, CRM data, call notes, and AI tools to create more useful content without sacrificing strategy, creativity, or trust.

From email marketing and SEO to AI-powered lead capture and automated workflows, this conversation offers a clear-eyed look at the future of marketing and customer experience. Whether you’re heading to Unbound in Boston, running a HubSpot-powered business, or exploring how AI fits into your operations, you’ll come away with a clearer understanding of what to automate, what to keep human, and how to make both work together.

Check out this episode on YouTube, Spotify, and Apple Podcasts.

• Episode Transcript

  Mark: Welcome to another episode of Unbound Unlocked. And today, we're going international with our panelists. We have people from the Cayman Islands, people from Slovenia, and added to a really diverse and interesting conversation.

  Aaron: That's right. So we have Tanya with Cronyx Digital, and we have Klemen from Celestial. And the perspectives today are really interesting because they're all thinking about how to leverage AI, both inside HubSpot's platform and outside HubSpot's platform. And of course, we want to talk about the conference and all the great things that we're looking forward to.

  Mark: Yeah. So tune in right now. I hope you guys enjoy it, and we'll see you guys soon at Unbound. Unbound Unlocked. Unbound Unlocked is where it's at. Unbound Unlocked. We're here to chat. It's all the things you want and more. So hang around, let's open that door.

  Aaron: Hello, everybody. It's Aaron here with the Sound of Inbound, and we have this special summer series we're calling Unbound Unlocked. And today, we are joined by, I'm going to call it the Bermuda Triangle or the trifecta, where we're coming from three different points of the world right now. So we have Tanya from the Cayman Islands, and she's here with Cronyx Digital, and we also have Klemen with Celestial, and he is coming from the coast of the Adriatic Sea in Slovenia. Today's discussion, we're going to dive into about Unbound. We're going to talk about some of the things that are going to be topics we're interested in for this year's conference. And also, I would love to get their hot take on a number of big topics that are happening around the world of RevOps and digital and AI, and of course, marketing and sales, because these two folks are, in their own right, owners of their own agency and trying to do a lot of things with HubSpot. And so I thought it'd be a great idea to dive into how they handle all the trends and all the cool things that are happening. So please welcome to the show, both Klemen and Tanya. Thank you both for joining us.

  Tanya: Thank you for having us.

  Klemen: Pleasure to be here.

  Aaron: Yeah. So first off, I just want to be very transparent. So Tanya and I are in the same partner user group, and she is a former correspondent at the Inbound conference, now the Unbound conference. So she's been to the show a number of times before. How long have you been working in HubSpot, Tanya?

  Tanya: Over a decade. It's been 10 years.

  Aaron: It's been 10 years. I also call her the closet Canadian from the Cayman Islands because she has migrated south. That did not leave HubSpot behind, of course. You brought it down there, and I believe you even told me at one point you are representing quite a large demographic of, or people of, you're representing a lot of HubSpot just in that area. Is that correct?

  Tanya: That's correct. And I was going through the partner directory the other day, and we're actually the top-tier, top-rated partner in all of the Caribbean. Now, we don't have a lot of competition, but it's something to brag about, to be like, ooh.

  Aaron: You're the leader in the Caribbean. That's fantastic. And do you also run a HUG down there, too? I'm forgetting if that was the case.

  Tanya: We do. We do the Caribbean Content Strategy HUG.

  Aaron: The Caribbean Content Strategy HUG? The CCSH? Okay. And I saw this earlier because Klemen is very, very busy with HubSpot stuff, and he's always putting on all sorts of interesting things that are going on in the HubSpot universe. He also runs a HUG. Is it the AI RevOps HUG? Is that right? Did I get that cool? Okay.

  Klemen: AIROps or AI for RevOps.

  Aaron: That's awesome. And so give us a little bit of background that you might have with HubSpot.

  Klemen: I've been in the ecosystem now three, four years. I've been using HubSpot for over a decade, but always as a founder on a bare bones. But yeah, for the past three, four years, we've been initially building an app. Now we're building agents on and around HubSpot, building custom apps, UI extensions, and so forth. More on the AI and data side.

  Aaron: This is the trend. This is where we're all headed. And Tanya is a big proponent for these tools as well, as we've been talking about in our PUG, partner user group, PUG. But yeah, it's definitely a topic we've been all very interested in learning a lot more this year to figure out how we can leverage it. So back to you for a second, Tanya, because you're a business owner, but you also have attended this conference before in the same capacity that I'm going to be joining for the third year in a row as the Insider. And so I'm sure you have a lot of things that you would like to glean from a conference of this nature. Do you attend anything else like it during the year, or is this now conference, Unbound, the one thing that you're going to?

  Tanya: It's mostly the one thing that I go to because it takes all of the things that I look for in a conference and puts it in one. So first, it's fun. It's a really fun conference to go to. It's a good opportunity to bring my team together. We're a fully remote team, so to get everyone together, or at least those who can attend, is a really nice once-a-year check-in face-to-face. It's a great way to bring our clients in. We bring our prospects, leads, existing clients, and then the content is phenomenal. So it checks all the boxes. So we don't do a lot of other events. This one, though, is a must-do every year.

  Aaron: And then Klemen, for you, I need to know what the prescription is. He's a former pharmacist, I believe, right? Isn't that... This guy, he's been in my industry in many different ways because I've worked in the life sciences, so it's actually kind of remarkable that you're now moving into such a different space. But you go to this show for certain reasons every year, and you have to make that trek. So what's it worth for you? Why do you head out every year?

  Klemen: Chatting, networking. Don't look at me badly, but I attend only maybe three, four talks in all three days. It's really not about the talks. It's about people being there and all the evening events. It will be now my third year in a row at the conference, and from the very first day, I was just prioritizing. You have like 13,000 same-minded people you can just talk to. Of course, we can all meet on Zoom, but it's different.

  Aaron: Well, you're special-minded because if I remember correctly, you were wearing that costume that's behind you last year as you were walking around.

  Klemen: For two years.

  Aaron: He gets abducted by his AI alien as he's running around the conference, and it can't be funnier. It's great. I think a lot of people do come with a very open mind for this show, and it's kind of great how you embrace it. All right, so we have two owners here of businesses coming from different places. Also, Klemen, I would say you're also like an app inventor, too. You've done a lot of that kind of development work as well. So you have a really interesting relationship with HubSpot in that manner. And Tanya and I having agencies, we have that kind of relationship with them, too, where we're trying to sell and service a lot of HubSpot stuff. So I think that from all of us, we've all been in the platform for more than 10 years. It'd be great to get your take on a number of really cool trends that are happening around the industry, and I would love to play a little thing I like to call hot takes. You guys up for that? Good for it?

  Klemen: Definitely.

  Tanya: Let's do it.

  Aaron: Come on. Hey. Hey. It's time for some tasty hot takes. Takes, takes. Woo. I'm going to give you guys a quick hot take, and then from that, I want you guys to just give me your fast answer on it, and then we can talk about it. Does that sound cool? All right, let's do it. All right, so the first one here is nothing is better than email marketing.

  Tanya: Nothing is better than email marketing. Okay, so I will first lean into this that, yes, if you have the contact email, you have them for life. You can keep them, you can send them whatever you want, whenever you want, within reason. And when all of the other channels rise and fall, you still own it. Hot take, though, email marketing is dead for like the hundredth time because we all have our AI note-takers and filters and email sorters. Your marketing emails are going right into a folder and getting immediately deleted. But hang on to that email because it's coming back. It always does.

  Aaron: Okay, Klemen, what do you think? Nothing is better than email marketing. What's your take on it?

  Klemen: I never really prioritized email marketing and newsletters in all my businesses. We did cold outreach as a living for five years. So I believe, or at least I believed in email as a channel. But with all the AI, with everything, it's just so saturated channel that I think there's so many better ways how we can do marketing these days than email.

  Aaron: Okay, well, this leads well into my next question. PDFs are forever.

  Klemen: I think there are places, of course, why you would want to have it. But for us, we just built a whole AI-driven operating system for a company where we're not sending proposals anymore as PDFs. It's a website with login credentials where you log in and you have a scrollable website, landing page, which is a proposal. So you can vibe out all that. You can have way better designs. You can have it clickable. You can have comments like you have in Google Docs and so forth. So I see still a place where you have a downloadable PDF, but I think there are no better ways how you can share content.

  Aaron: All right, I love that. So what do you think on this front, Tanya?

  Tanya: I agree. PDFs are not forever. It's only a few legacy clients that need to document and archive and share, and those have the PDFs, but those guys are still printing it and putting it in a filing cabinet. So really, PDFs do not need to be existing for this.

  Aaron: The next one here I have is for both of you. What do you think about this? The future of search is asking, not searching.

  Tanya: What's the difference between asking and searching anyway? Like is, "Hey, Google, what restaurants are near me?" Like traditional restaurants near me search, how is that different than asking, "Hey, what search..." It's the same thing. I think the shift is how we search, and a lot more of it is voice-driven instead of just restaurants near me. You'd be like, "Hey, Google, what's the top-rated restaurant near me?" So because we can put such longer searches in there and it's more conversational, it feels like asking, but it's the same thing.

  Klemen: I think it is going from searching to asking from the aspect of what kind of Tania mentioned. In the past, you wrote three words and you expected to click through five different links below. Now you give 50 words, which means you elaborate what you're asking for, so it can be way better than the output and in a way, straightforward, the answer. So in a real conversation, you wouldn't say three words and then expect someone else to give you something back. You would ask a question or say something. So I think the way how we search is changing, and we are more asking and saying exactly what we want than just putting three words and then let Google figure out what we want.

  Aaron: Yeah. So maybe I should have phrased it better as search is changing into conversational search and not just keyword search. And that is an important aspect of how we're all attending to building out where content is going and where websites are going, all that kind of stuff. Okay, how about this one? Forms are dead.

  Tanya: No, disagree. Forms are not dead. Long live forms.

  Aaron: Long live forms. All right, we'll take it. How about you, Klemen?

  Klemen: I would say yes, they're gone. You can have so many fake emails. If I want you to find me, I'll make sure you find me. If I want to talk to you, I will talk to you. If I want to get your PDF behind a paywall or gate on a form, I will just figure out something else that you cannot contact me if I don't want to. So if you will earn to hear from me that, hey, I want to talk to you, we'll talk, if you have a form or not.

  Tanya: Can I change my answer slightly, Aaron? I would say, forms, yes, because that instant, like, I'm not going to call you. I'm not going to search out your email. Forms, yes, and for lead generation, get a second there, but chat to replace forms. So it feels the same for a lot of people when you just go in and you're like, "I need information on this. Here's my email." But chat as the form interface.

  Aaron: I was about to say, that's kind of where I feel like it's going as well. It doesn't feel like you have to fill out a traditional form, but the information's still being collected through conversation. So it's just a lot more nuanced. But it feels more natural, too, so I think that's an element of it.

  Tanya: Before the innovation, what, guys, 12 years ago with progressive forms, and we're all like, "Ooh, wow, progressive forms. There's only one question at a time. Oh, my God." And we're all very excited about it, and I think the latest version of that, what we should be excited about is don't put a form on your website. Maybe put a chatbot, and let people ask questions, get them more personalized, then do the enrichment. Then you collect all the same information, so it doesn't matter.

  Aaron: So it's a kind of neat way of approaching it. Okay. A couple more I had for you both. Let me see. Nobody wants another newsletter. I feel like Klemen said this earlier, so I want to grab it. So what about the newsletter? You just say nobody wants another newsletter?

  Klemen: I subscribe to newsletters, but I don't open any of them.

  Aaron: All right. That's fair. Even from LinkedIn? Like when you're using the LinkedIn newsletter service, too, you don't open those? Okay. All right. All right, Tania, how about you?

  Tanya: No. They're straight into my auto sorted folder, and then I will scroll and maybe pick one or two, but no. Even the ones I want, I don't read them.

  Aaron: So it is a strange world that we're living in when you have organizations, agencies like ours, Tania, that are pushing our clients to produce more. Okay, you get the irony in this.

  Tanya: I open my clients' newsletters and click them all.

  Aaron: You are opening, right? We're producing more content for them, and we want people to know about said content, and social media only has, what, a half a second of people's attention. So if they didn't log in at 10:00 a.m., they missed the news anyway, so how else can you grab it without the persistent nature of an email newsletter or anything of the sort? So it's just strange. There was a comment a number of years ago that said, I thought this was really funny, "All the emails we receive are spam. All the emails we send are gold." So it's like, oh, okay, yeah, that's a good point. So it is something that we feel like, okay, there is a value. Here's my take on it. There's a value in the newsletter if it's a win-win, if it has real insight and relevance to the audience. And I think if we want to be modern about it, that the newsletter is somehow personalized to the person who's receiving it, that not everybody actually gets the same content. That would be a really cool way to evolve. I'm not trying to convince you both, but you're both nodding, so I think it is a kind of a way that maybe these things could have a purpose in the future. What do you think?

  Klemen: What if your LinkedIn feed and your post is basically a newsletter? People follow you, people see your content. This is the same way, just shorter forms of text, of information, and I think it's way more likely that someone sees your post than reads your newsletter.

  Tanya: I do find that email still works well. Like when we're looking at the numbers, it's still converting, so even though a lot of us do just auto ignore it and filter it away, a lot of people still open, and you do have that long-term connection. Like the LinkedIn post, you're more likely to see it if you, as you said, Aaron, if you're on at 10:00 a.m. when somebody posts, you can see it, but email sticks around. We have people who open emails weeks later and follow up. So it's a good way to kind of get sticky if somebody's not auto-deleting.

  Aaron: I agree. I think that the follow-on question for this is, the one more question or so, is just to say that community will outperform content in the next couple of years. And when you said the social media, Klemen, about people are more likely to follow you on social media and that becomes kind of like your newsletter, that to me is where the community is hanging out. And so do you feel that way? Do you feel like the community will outperform people just downloading content, subscribing to stuff, getting emails, and going through gates to download PDFs?

  Klemen: I would say yes, especially because we are all now looking for relationships, for trusting people, and it's through social media, through podcasts, through video content, you can build that credibility. People will get to know you much more than they would through the newsletter. So this conversation starter is then much easier if they see your face than they see you at Unbound. "Hey, this is the same guy I've been seeing for five months now on LinkedIn." Where with newsletter, I don't think you get that internal thing, "Hey, I know that guy."

  Aaron: Yeah, you don't get the same kind of feeling and that personal feeling from it. Yeah, I agree. Okay, one last question I'm going to say here. AI-generated content is going to make human creativity more valuable or less valuable?

  Tanya: Some of it's really good, but a lot of it is not. Sorry. A lot of it is just garbage because the time isn't put in to craft your prompts and build your brief to really hit the right notes. So I would say human creativity is still where it's at.

  Klemen: I think yes, there is a place for human creativity, for human thoughts, for human context. Of course, AI will help you draft posts, draft newsletters, and so forth, but your take on things is what I'm looking for. I can ask the same Claude for the same output that you got, and then you put it out as a post. But my take on that topic is something you will not see from Claude.

  Aaron: I like that transition. So his take, my take on it. These have been hot takes with Tania and Klemen. Come on. Hey. Hey. It's time for some tasty hot takes. Takes. I think that is great that you guys are sharing this perspective because I want to now next talk about the Unbound conference. So everybody, please stick around for just a moment. When we come right back, we're going to dive into Unbound. You can follow them online at unbound.com and join us this September. I think it's the 14th or 16th or the 18th, something like that, whole week in Boston. So please stick around. We're going to talk about Unbound conference.

  Hello, everybody. We are back here with Tanya and Clement, coming to us from across the ocean and the sea. We're halfway around the world from each other, but we're all here together to talk about Unbound Conference and, of course, HubSpot. So you have two excellent experts here on topics that really span the whole gamut of marketing and operations and sales, and all sorts of interesting things. So I thought just to kind of get into it, we want to put this AI layer on things. So, just timing-wise, it's kind of funny. Tanya and I actually met earlier today during our partner user group, and we were talking about leveraging AI agents and specifically about writing for us. And so I think a lot of people have said this before, Tanya, but now inside of HubSpot, there are some interesting AI agents that are doing some interesting things. Some of it are literally just interesting and not super great and exciting. But I wanted to get your take on the things we talked about today related to blog content, blog research, that kind of thing.

  Tanya: So the new HubSpot AEO tools are pretty good. They're good at finding and filling that gap. So as content strategists, we've always been doing our keyword research, trying to map the customer journey. What content do people need at each stage of the journey? And the AEO tools have been really helpful in surfacing different keyword searches. We were talking about conversational search, just the way people have searched has changed, and how to show up for that has changed, too. So we've been leaning in as an agency on using that to identify gaps in our content and then using the blog research agent to whip up multiple versions of that content, and we can create that much faster than previous. You're not going to assign your copywriter to be like, "Write three different versions of this article on this topic." So being able to generate that content quickly and then to really sit down and review it and be like, "Okay, what of this is actually helpful versus just noise?" And to have our editors go through and make something that really fits with what we're offering and with the buyer's journey. Because the challenge on creating the content has always been, do we need to create this? I can create three blog posts, but should I? So taking it back to the strategy and really lining it in to be like, how does this help our buyer? How is it going to help the AI answers when people are searching whatever? Is this going to help to educate and fill that gap, or are we just producing noise? So the agents have been really great at producing content, but the huge amount of review and assessment is needed for whether to use it.

  Aaron: So I agree. There's a lot of setup tools that you can take advantage of to get you to that point of having it be in your tone and be in your style. But one thing that's hard to ask a writer to do is to write an article and then write it again in a different persona. So this is, I do think, an opportunity where you can take advantage of a tool to say, try it out in these different personas each time and then have a human go back through and see, is it really any different? And are we offering anything that's actually unique for one persona over another? But over the years, I wish we would always have had a separate email thread and a workflow and blog post for all the different kind of decision makers and influencers that are out there, so that we are speaking to them more one-to-one. And I think AI is now finally giving us an opportunity to at least explore. So I think that's great on the content side. So over to you, Clement. You do a lot more sophisticated agent kind of work, and you do that both inside and outside HubSpot, is that correct?

  Klemen: Yeah.

  Aaron: Yeah. So give us an example of the kind of more sophisticated agents that you guys are building.

  Klemen: One of them is you have a lot of context from your perspective related to content creation. I built an app for myself where I'm feeding all my Fathom note-takers transcripts, because hopefully, I do say something useful on a sales call. And if I'm saying some thoughtful things over there, that can be my take on some aspect of something. So my thought process was, hey, I'm already giving a lot of my thoughts. If I'm on calls four hours a day, there are four hours of my voice being recorded. So why don't we use all that, synthesize, see, okay, if I'm on five calls in a row saying the same thing, probably this is something I want to talk publicly, not only on sales calls. So this is a great starting point then for an agent, which can produce a blog post that I can then review. But it starts with my thoughts, with my views on specific things.

  Aaron: Do you feel like you're giving anything away by sharing that pattern with the rest of the world? Or are you just like, "We're transparent. There's nothing to hide. There's no secret sauce here."

  Klemen: I'm sharing my thoughts on calls, how I automate. I don't think there's a secret sauce if I have AI helping me be more productive. Going back to a discussion we had, is AI taking over human creativity? This is where human creativity or human thoughts or human context will, I think, always outperform. And if I'm telling you that, hey, I'm already giving thoughts into what my point of view is on a specific topic, why would I not use that as a context? Hey, this is what I want to talk about in a blog post or in a LinkedIn post. I don't think there's a secret we should keep.

  Aaron: So when you say you have all this context, you're probably saying you're referencing HubSpot as a backbone of CRM data into an offsite CRM-- I mean, offsite AI tool, correct? And what Tanya was referencing was an AI tool built into the system. But you can also build your own agents now in its own kind of AI marketplace in HubSpot, too, if I'm getting that correct. Is that correct, Clement? Yeah, you're both nodding, so I think-

  Klemen: I believe so, yes.

  Tanya: Yes. I think there's an agent marketplace. I believe that's right.

  Aaron: Somebody-- Oh, there is. Okay, Tanya's saying yes. Okay. So it is kind of an interesting world. We're going from app design to agent design. So I think, Clement, you mentioned this before. You've shifted your business to that. Is that accurate? Because I believe that's kind of one of the biggest things that you guys have said this year. We're not app developers as much as we are agent developers, so we're going to really lean on that. As much as customization is still required and app development background is required, but not developer mindset is required, but that's where you guys are.

  Klemen: Yeah. Our story was, we thought we were building a SaaS business. Then, like a month after Inbound last year, we realized, hey, we have customers, but we don't have users of our system. We were always asking, "Can you build that agent? Can you fix that data? Can you do that?" In a way that customers were saying, "Hey, I tried to do that." We had a case of, "Hey, we tried to do a deal summary in a smart property in HubSpot." But then they couldn't rely on the output. It was not reliable or consistent in a format that they wanted to. So they asked us, "Hey, can you build a proper agent that we can rely on so that every Friday I have a summary of all 50 deals in a format I want without me going then through all those 50 deals and trying to figure out if that summary in a smart property is correct." And then from that sense, we realized, okay, we have the expertise to build agents you can trust the output, and you can run in production, where if you want to run AI in production, you need to trust the output. You shouldn't question the output. Which means you need to have a full control of what context goes in the agent. And this is, again, where it breaks a lot of people trying to build agents for their own use.

  Aaron: So let's talk about trust, and I would like to get this question over to Tanya. But before I do that, Clement's partner in crime at their business at Celestial. You guys are actually going to have a class at Unbound this year going into AI hallucination and how to prevent it and how to see it and all that kind of good stuff. So for those that attend, there's an interesting topic going to be covered at the show. So Tanya, what's your point on a point of view on trusting the AI?

  Tanya: Trusting the AI, you need to trust the data. Back to what you said, Clement, if you don't trust the data that it's using, anything it outputs is going to be questionable or just right false. So really, before we build any systems, we've built a few custom interfaces and agents so that our clients don't have to operate within the HubSpot portal. They have their own dashboard interface, but it still syncs to HubSpot and updates all the data. But we put a lot of controls on there to lock down what people can edit and do and to force associations. And so for the trust for the AI agents, we've kind of taken it to say, well, we put those guardrails right in it. So we don't let it just completely autonomously do everything. We write rules and parameters and set our guidelines on what can be updated and where we're going to get the data from. And then we build the interface to kind of work with that, so there's not too much drawing outside the lines from the users or the agents, so that we can keep everything nice and clean.

  Aaron: It all starts with clean data, doesn't it?

  Klemen: But there's an agent for that.

  Aaron: Or there's an agent they think that's for that. It does feel still very subjective, because when we do analyses of certain databases using certain other outside tools, we look at the data and we're like, well, is that really real? Or is it just looking at other information that didn't have the context to tell if it was real or not? So it does still require, I call it human in lead. People keep saying human in the loop. But I do feel like there is a sense of you got to get back in there and understand your data before you activate it on these tools so that you can trust it, as Tanya's saying, so you can put some trust in it. All right. Well, I think it's going to be a massive discussion point for this year's show. And the more that people are starting to lean into HubSpot and their tool set, they are going to find that, I call it breezy Breezes is this ever-present thing that has a lot of different kinds of functions, and it's moving into this agentic function. And there's going to be a day, maybe Clement can tell us it's actually already here, where I feel like you could upload a creative brief, tell them what kind of campaign you're trying to run, explain who your audience is, and then it just kind of makes the whole thing for you. Is that even possible, Clement? Do you think that we're already there, that you could just set it free?

  Klemen: I think we're really close to that. You can really chain several agents in a way you want with your tone of voice, with your branding, and so forth. So the output can be pretty amazing already. We built an agent for one of the customers where they wanted to have AI-generated creatives for billboards. So they sell billboards. So for the outreach, they wanted to have AI-generated billboards like, "Hey, I'm reaching to roofing company, and this is how your billboard would look like on a billboard in San Francisco." You start with their website, and from the website, we have an agent which takes a screenshot of the website to get what their verbiage is, to get what their logo is, to see if they have green or blue on their website. And with that in mind, with AI, we have another agent which prepares a brief for another agent, which is then creating an image, a billboard, and then another agent which does that. So you have a chain of five agents, and the output is really amazing.

  Aaron: I think for demonstration or sample purposes, I'd be cool with it, but being a creative agency, and so is Tanya, what are your thoughts on that, Tanya?

  Tanya: I was like, what is it going to send? Oh my God, what would it actually create? Definitely review before you send that. We've been playing around with it, but we find that overall for process, for operations and process and feedback loops from the client and revisions and control over what the output is, we still have found that the old school way of doing things, like we do a lot of website builds. So doing your wireframe and your mock-up in Figma and having the designer in there building all that. And then, we definitely use Claude to help build the modules for it, but really still going through and module by module for our pages and templates, we still go old school with that, even though I know we could use agents for a lot. The output is so much cleaner when we have that oversight, so that when we need to go in and edit and adjust things on the code level, we can a lot easier. Where I find a lot of the things that we've built AI magically, you can't get in there with the same level of control. So when we need to go and make structural tweaks to the modules, it's not quite the same.

  Aaron: We've used it for mock-ups, and we've used it for plotting out video. We have had some clients, this is the strangest thing for me, Clement, to mention, by the way, about AI and the hallucination part that your partner's going to be talking about. It's like you could tell it, I want to put a person who's inside to transition into a different outfit, to jump out a window and land in a Porsche and take off, and it can do all that and take care of all the gravity and all the physics and all these crazy things with the lighting and the wind and the people and the dust and oh my God, all this great stuff. But if I wanted to put the word, I'm making this stupid thing up, but strategy on the side of the Porsche, it wouldn't really be the word strategy. It would be this weird conglomeration of sort of what looks like letters. And it's crazy that it's still doing this right now when all the other things are coming out so crystal clear. It's incredible to me. How can the AI figure all that out, but it just can't have the word strategy on the side of the car? That's where we all kind of giggle at it, and we all immediately say, "This is not what we think it is." We were joking the other day, and I think it actually came up on one of our podcasts, that AI should have its own font, and that way you always know it's AI. If you look at a social post or a video or you're looking at a document that was created, like oh, it's that font, so that has to be AI. We thought that would be a way to be a telltale sign. All right. Well, one thing I wanted to ask you both about was about the conference. This is something we've all attended for quite a while. And now this big shift from a conference that was really all around inbound and then inbound marketing originally to something much, much bigger to that and thinking holistically about customer experience has now been rebranded Unbound. So what makes this conference an unconference for you both?

  Tanya: So I mentioned at the start some of the reasons I like to go, like connecting with the team, getting the content, fun experiences. For me, it's really the face time with our partners. So I get to meet my PDM in real life and other HubSpot execs that we've really developed friendships with and good relationships with over the last decade. Because we're in so many different programs, like we've got our partner program reps, we've got the Hub coordinators, we've got all of these different programs. It's a really great time to go and sit down and pick their brain and be like, "What's the future of this program?" Or like, "Let's talk about badges and accreditations." And to get that not so much inside peek, because HubSpot has all been very good about keeping inside peeks close to the vest lately. But to get that face time and to build that relationship so that when new opportunities come up, they think of you, which is super invaluable. So just being able to get that face time, build the relationships, you can't do that anywhere else.

  Aaron: You brought up something that I think is important. If you are interested in ever becoming a solutions partner and you do go to the HubSpot conference, or Unbound conference, and you do attend Partner Day, they are giving you a line of sight of where things are going. And depending upon your relationship with HubSpot, you can even get an earlier line of sight on where things are going, and that can help strategically position your business to get ready for things that are changing. And that to me is a good partnership. There are sorts of other things that they're doing and offering to enable organizations to feel like they're at the ready level that they should be. And then once they release these tools or these strategies, you have all the things that you might require for your communications and training and all that kind of good stuff. So they're getting better and better and better about that every year. And their academy, of course, is also free, so you have all this other access to resources to point people to. But you're right, you get to the show, and you have a lot of accessibility to many, many people that have a direct impact on where the platform is going or the business is going. And I do feel like they listen. I do. As much as we criticize in all our grower groups and stuff, at the end of the day, they are hearing and listening to everything we're saying, and they're trying to find ways to incorporate that feedback loop. And there's some things changing this year with the partner ecosystem, and so there's been a lot of feedback, good and bad, about that. I mean, raising the bar is an important aspect of it, so that's not just for everybody. But I also think that it also makes it challenging for more companies to, at least on the agency side, to embrace HubSpot as their platform of choice because they have to put a bigger commitment involved to get part of that. But coming to the conference can maybe settle some anxieties about where that program is going. So I think that's a good point. How about you, Clement? What do you think about what is making this conference not feel like a normal conference?

  Klemen: One is the vibe. When I first entered the Inbound '24, I felt like, okay, this is a place where I belong. Even though it's a huge venue and there are 14,000, 15,000 people, you feel, okay, this is where people are open, people are happy to chat. You can talk to anyone, as well as you can meet from top executives at HubSpot walking around. We're all there openly talking to each other. And I can give you my experience. I was at SaaStr last year in California, and I was like Trying to wear my Alien with the same purpose as for Inbound. And in 30 minutes, two safety guards came to me that I'm violating the whatever terms and conditions, that I have to put it down, otherwise they will take me out physically. And everything was clean, sterile. I really didn't feel good walking around there for two days, three days, whatever the conference was. Where the vibe at Unbound is different. On top of all the networking and all the discussions you can have, but just the vibe is you really have fun all three days, no matter how many kilometers you walk, and you will walk a lot, if nothing else. But you'll have fun. You'll be tired, exhausted, but that's why you have a long flight home, so you can rest.

  Aaron: Yeah, come on. It's the one time of year you can go out and have some fun and just push it, right? Yes, I'm agreeing with you that the vibe is a very, very different feeling overall. And as I have exemplified over the years, you can drop a needle on anybody and have all sorts of really fun conversations, and you have no idea where that's going to lead. And there's insights from all sorts of industries you could also take advantage of that you never thought you would ever have access to. So it's kind of an interesting network to have there. As far as content topics for you both, is there anything that you're looking at for this year's agenda that you're both like, "I might lean in on that?" Or did you even look at the agenda yet? Because there's a lot of things that are certainly totally leaning in on the AI side. Well, you can imagine, Tanya, of course, it's going to be leaning in on AI.

  Tanya: I haven't even looked at the agenda. But Clemen, you said at the start that it's not so much about the different sessions, it's about the networking and people, and I feel that acutely. But having gone for the last decade, so I think this is my 11th Inbound, Unbound, it's really shifted over the years, right? So when I was starting out and just learning the platform, those sessions were gold. And then moving through my career, now it's about maintaining agency partnerships, solidifying relationships. But my team, I want them to get there and be like, "Go learn how to roll out the new personalization content in emails." And I want them to go get curious and to get inspired by the examples of what other people are doing. And some of the content creators there are just top-notch. So I want them to attend all the sessions while I go shake hands and have coffees.

  Aaron: Any topics that you're looking forward to, Clemen?

  Klemen: AI, probably. My approach is always if there is a meeting slot that I can take with someone else, and if it's not Dharmesh on stage, I'll just go to a meeting. I can watch webinars whenever. And I can learn from others' content where I cannot talk in person with someone for 30 minutes elsewhere. So I just prioritize networking and meeting with people against any other presentation there.

  Aaron: Yeah. I want to get the names right, but I'm not going to get it fast enough up on my screen to look it up. But this year they have expanded all the different ways in which we can connect with people. So they have created these networking zones, and I've said it before on another podcast, but they're meant for people who are in certain roles, certain markets, certain identity. And those are supposed to be where you can find even more closely matched people in your market or in your mindset, and you want to network with folks in that way. And then, of course, there's all sorts of other kinds of open forums where you can have a discussion around the platform or learning certain kinds of things with the academy. And then there's also all sorts of other partners on the show floor as well, and they're there for learning too. So it doesn't feel like it's a hard sell in any way. You're there to actually absorb it all and get all the good vibes, as it is.

  Tanya: I was going to say, over the years, there's pictures over the years of these activations and I'm sitting in a tub with rubber duckies. And then other years I'm making a personal cologne, and then other years I'm making my own belt with leather-making tools. I'm like, "What is this place? Is this really a marketing conference?" I'm like, a topiary. I'm building a topiary with the Citibank folks, and I'm taking home plants. It's like, "What? Aaron, I thought you went to a marketing conference." It's more like a party.

  Aaron: It kind of has both things going for it. The big main stage talks, though, are fun, and it does give us all a moment to kind of realize what else is happening out there. And there are some really big names that have come through over the years. Anything you guys have been picking up that you're like, "Oh, yeah, never would've been able to be in a room if I hadn't gone to this conference because they had X, Y, Z on stage?"

  Tanya: Michelle Obama was amazing, and I probably never would've had the chance to see her anywhere else, right? But to go in and just the message that she had, she's so inspiring. And some of the other people, too. I didn't know who Brené Brown was until I just wandered in and sat in her keynote and was like, "This woman is onto something. I need to get her books." And just being more aware of what's out there because we all are in our own little bubbles, and we're all so busy day to day. So just getting exposed to new people and ideas and seeing idols up there is just very, very cool.

  Aaron: Those are both very iconic people, Brené Brown and Michelle Obama. Those are excellent examples. How about you? Anything for you, Clemen?

  Klemen: For me, it was last year's Dario Amodei, CEO of Anthropic. It was, yeah, when will be the next time when you sit next to that guy? They're now so big that, never. The same goes now for Serena Williams. Again, people you know. I'm also a former athlete, so sports is close to my heart. So it's interesting to hear someone from outside of marketing world talk at that lens and in that point of view around how they think within those boundaries.

  Aaron: Yeah. Those are also great examples, and I would say for those that are just interested, check out the lineup this year. It does have a very wide berth of different kinds of folks, from professional actors to athletes to just big folks in business. It's incredible. And you wouldn't have these experiences anywhere else, and it is kind of an interesting moment to stop and kind of get that kind of level of inspiration. And then share with folks, if you want to come to the party next year, you might get a chance to be in the room with Michelle Obama, which is an amazing kind of opportunity. This is excellent. I do feel like through this exercise of having these discussions with all these different kinds of organizations, we all have a different take on it. We have a different way of experiencing these kinds of conferences. But we should have a moment each year where we look out and not just down at our computers and just be so inset with our client work. This is a really cool and healthy way to get out and to be networking, looking for opportunities, checking with your clients and your partners in crime. And then, of course, just getting some amazing inspiration. And this year, there's going to be some really fun folks on stage to share that, too. I'm not going to give out who. I've already talked about that, so go check out unbound.com if you want to know who's going to be there. This has been excellent. I'm really having a lot of fun with this whole series, so I appreciate you both being there. And again, as I mentioned earlier, Clemen is going to be at the show with me this year as an Unbound Insider. That's the correspondent program where we're sharing our insights into how the show is going and what's going on, and what we want to have as key takeaways. And of course, Tanya will be there, too, but she'll be more networking than the rest of us and have more time for that, which is great as well. You'll see her smiling face running around, I'm sure, all these different kind of networking zones, as I'm hoping she'll high-five me there as well. If you want to check them out online, you're going to find Tanya at cronyxdigital.com. That's cronyxdigital.com. And if you want to check out Clemen, he is on itcelestial.com. We'll put it up on screen here. And then again, if you want to join the three of us at Unbound this year, it's September. I looked it up, September 16th through the 18th in Boston. And we hope that you guys will all join us. So Clemen, Tanya, thank you so much for joining us here on the Sound of Inbound. I appreciate it so much. You guys are excellent.

  Tanya: Thank you for having us, and see you in Boston.